Landlords: is it worth it to separate the heat in my steam 4 family?
We bought a 4 family rowhouse with an oil guzzling steam heat system, seller said it used $12k a year. I can simply replace the boiler with a gas one that’s not oversized like the current one is according to a contractor, or I can rip out the radiators etc and install individual hydronic systems for each unit. Obviously the latter is going to be at least 3-4 times the $7k the boiler would cost.
Is it worth it, when if I price the apartments well I can pass the cost along, barring instability in fuel prices? Our other rentals all pay their own and we like it that way, and advertising the units they look cheaper compared to “utilities included” ones. But that may not be worth borrowing an extra $20k. It’s hard to do a clear capital recovery calculation when the original expense isn’t so easy to pin down once we get the rents up to market.
jells
in Landlord 13 years and 2 months ago
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10 replies
brokelin | 13 years and 2 months ago
I think you should do what controls costs and provides the heat as evenly as possible, rather than worry about condo conversion. There are plenty of condos in old brownstone type buildings (and most of the coops) that still have one boiler and do not have separate heat. (Many prefer it – you don’t have to give up space to a furnace and hot water heater in your unit, and you don’t have to be in close proximity to the byproducts of combustion.) I would worry about the necessity of providing separate heat if and when you ever condo it, as you may find with it to be completely unncecssary. It is quite likely that different floors have different amounts of heat. In some buildings, the top floors get way more, hence the open windows you see in the top floors of old apartment buildings; in others (this may be hot water radiator systems, rather than the steam kind), each floor gets colder as you go up. There are things you can do to balance it out better – using different valves on radiators – I can never remember the differences between steam and hot water systems on this adequately – but you can ask you heating people.
needmtg | 13 years and 2 months ago
Love the responses from self-serving people who want to charge more. I suggest you look at responses from people who’ve had work done to compare costs. Granted, it was in ’02, but I paid thru Keyspan, 5500 for a complete install of 150kbtu gas steam boiler, and removal of oil tank, under permit, or at least I suppose so as there was a sign-off. Odd, didn’t worry about the credentials of the tank-removal crew, it was done in something like 1 hour and they emptied the tank of residual oil also. Guess I’m just dumb or lucky they didn’t mess up. Gas is definitely cheaper than oil. Indirect via the boiler may be more efficient, but hot water for a brownstone is about $75 igas, so at most you’ll save $15-20/month; compare to additional cost of indirect coil vs. storage w/h. Also, I wonder about the additional wear & tear on the main boiler mechanisms now running 12 months/yr instead of 6\. There’s a pump, electronic controls and sensors in addition compared to storage w/h. One more thing: do not use ceiling radiant. Regardless of what anyone says (radiant heats people, not the air, narrowly true but eventually the room air & objects are what store heat,) it’s terrible. Heat rises and the there’s a noticeable difference in temp at different levels. Good if you plan to live on stilts, I guess.
ellenlourie | 13 years and 2 months ago
Plumbing license does not make one smart. It is just a statement, that those individuals have required years of experience in plumbing field, passed test in knowledge of plumbing code and practical exam and have a right to conduct plumbing business in NYC. Building code establishes minimum requirements, but not the best way to build good and efficient heating system. And all inclusive and “all done”. In who’s opinion? is there clear scope of work to be done written in the proposal? This price is to good to be true. Something wrong with the math. The sad part of it is that you, as thousands other homeowners will never know the savings and comfort good heating system can provide. You are writing that your bills are too high? Ok, oil to gas conversion might save you money, and gas btu per btu is 40% cheaper than #2 heating oil. But there is more to that. Boiler is just a part of heating system, and you have to look at house as a system and see what is wrong.
ellenlourie | 13 years and 2 months ago
As per $7K steam boiler, you have to check those lines: chimney lining probably $1,800 to $2,000 oil tank removal $900 per 275 us gal tank filing $1,200 to $1,500 just to buy boiler under Nat grid program $2,900 indirect water heater $1,200 then you have to remove old boiler, install pads, do near boiler piping with insulation, clean old system, do all control and electric, automatic feeder, pipe in indirect, install new gas line and get all this inspected and signed off. I did not cound labore , lets say you got suckers working for free. o eya, do not forget warranty. So where does price of $7,000 pulled from?
ellenlourie | 13 years and 2 months ago
With 4 individual systems you are close to $90k+. Or more if you take into account all construction work.
elbow | 13 years and 2 months ago
Our 20′ x 45′ building is four stories and basement. It’s on a corner, so we’re a bit more exposed than most. The heating is gas one pipe steam off a relatively new boiler. We pay less than $5K per year for gas. YTD we have yet to hit $2K.
jells | 13 years and 2 months ago
My other units aren’t high turnover, but then we’re not very agressive about rents. The potential to condo had occured to me, even though personally i don’t know why anyone would buy a railroad apt. But they do. If I were to separate heat, my favorite idea is hydronic radiant ceilings. Frees up floor space and the ceilings need a lot of work anyway. Masterplvmber: there’s already tenant gas meters, but it’s still an expensive job. If I was looking at eminent recovery of the investment from condoing, it would make more sense. But in talking to the tenants I’ve already got conflicting heat stories: top floor says she opens the windows because it’s too hot, 2nd floor with the thermostat says she calls him to turn up the heat. A locked thermostat would be a definite with a new boiler, but there would still be plenty of tenant tantrums I’m sure. I just saw a thermometer on Amazon that logs and graphs temps for download, would be a great tool to defuse & diagnose problems.
brokelin | 13 years and 2 months ago
I think smart renters know that utility costs can be variable, and prefer included heat in renting, especially in a place like Brooklyn, where it is generally included, unless you are renting one of the newly built or relatively newly renovated condos. They can see through the monthly rent that looks lower. Do you have a lot of turnover? I would think you might, when they figure out the actual costs after living there…maybe you like turnover, some landlords do. On the other hand, if you have lived in apartments with inadequate heat, the ability to be warm when you want, whatever the cost when you turn up that thermostat, is invaluable. Maybe you get tenants who like that – I once could control my heat (though I didn’t have to pay, as it was separately controlled but not separately metered) when I moved out of NYC for a few years, and it was the only apartment I have ever had that could ever count on being adequately heated. I wouldn’t spend a lot of money for installing that, though, were I renovating a rental…I think there is some efficiency in fuel costs in shared heating systems.
Master Plvmber | 13 years and 2 months ago
4 brand new heating systems with compliant gas lines and meters from scratch is not $20k. It’s much more.
If I were you, I would look to make the right upgrades on the steam heating system and keep a bunch of money in my pocket.
Boiler sizing is vital to maximizing efficiency, but so is venting, pressure ranges and outdoor reset.
Bklnite | 13 years and 2 months ago
I think you could save something like 30 to 40% on heating bills just by switching from oil to gas at current market prices. I think it would be worth installing separate systems for each unit if you wanted to convert to condos down the line or as part of a gut reno, in which case I’d look at going to a gas fired hydronic system instead of steam. If you’re not doing a gut reno I doubt it’s worth it.