Asbestos abatement obligations
We bought a brownstone last year and have been renting it out for a few months. Our tenants just informed us they believe there is asbestos in the fireplace lining, one of which is peeking through the grate. The home was built in the 1890s and those fireplaces are original, so there is a good chance they’re right. Our inspection pre-purchase didn’t turn this up, so we had no idea (and signed a “landlord is uanaware” clause in the lease). We have the inspector coming to check it out. I want to understand what I’m obligated to do here. If it is asbestos, it looks to be in good shape, not crumbling. Does the inspector say whether it’s hazardous or not? We’re planning a major renovation after their lease is up in December, so if it is not hazardous we would ideally just roll any abatement into that rather than disturb the tenants unnecessarily (and lose rent, etc). If it is hazardous, given that it is such a small area (three fireplaces), what kind of costs/time can we expect for the abatement? thanks!
ohmpcivamr
in Landlord 11 years ago
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18 replies
ohmpcivamr | 10 years and 11 months ago
We felt that we had to test at this point. I still don’t know if that was the right call, but it’s done now. :-\ In case anyone reads this thread in the future to get a sense of costs for a job like this, the abatement quote we received to remove it from 2 fireplaces is $6,300 (Leinster). We are looking into other options, and getting quotes for encapsulation only, because this seems much higher than prices I’ve read on Brownstoner for pipe-related abatement.
dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 11 months ago
you may need a lawyer. if you test it and it is positive you can’t be cetain they won’t come back in the future with looking for a payday from your general liability policy. If you agree to the settlement of covering their brokerage fee, no testing will have been done, and you could have them agree to make it contingent upon signing a waiver that they will take no further legal action against you on the matter. i’m just thinking out loud, thus the lawyer comment. here is the stuff tenants are reading on the web: http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/personal-injury/landlords-responsibility-removing-asbestos-apartment.html I believe the writer is CA law and not NY law. If the fireplace is encapsulated, and you even have the air tested for asbestos, i dont think they could claim warranty of habitability and withhold rent. As far as demanding a test of the substance, you may want further specific legal guidance on the subject, I was not aware of this OSHA rule applicable to landlords that hire contractors. At the end of the day it sounds like they are freaking out and want out, and if you can do it without a paper trail of the test and a waiver of future legal action, i would personally shoot for that. Witholding rent gets tricky and judges seem to frequently knock down arrears owed anyway, and it would seem to me that throwing a potential positive asbestos test into the mix would potentially put you in a much worse position than right now. Either way it seems you have borderline hostile tenants. best of luck with this situation,
ventilated | 10 years and 11 months ago
I don’t know why I checked this thread again. From this distance, it’s impossible to know exactly what’s happening, but even if only reporting one side of the story you’re definitely playing a role in enabling the drama. As landlords in NYC, you are required to disclose KNOWN presence of lead paint, and KNOWN prior bedbug infestation. If your inspection prior to purchase did not mention the presence of asbestos, then its presence in your building is NOT known to you. Your tenants cannot obligate you to test for asbestos, and you’d be an idiot to cater to their demands, which hint at extortion. Proceed IN WRITING–without including specifics of the asbestos drama–offering that if your tenants state in writing their desire to move, you’re willing to let them break their lease without penalty. (From your talk about property manager, I gather you don’t live in the building, maybe don’t live nearby, maybe don’t even live in the country.) There’s no reason for you to believe the tenants really intend to move. Or, perhaps, they’ve been planning to move for a while and scheming how to break their lease and reduce their costs. Consider carefully whether it’s worth the price to you have a vacancy and pay a broker’s fee to get rid of them (in big picture, it probably is). Any agreement you make with them should require that, prior to reimbursement, you see a signed lease at a confirmed new address and a cancelled check to a licensed broker confirming payment of a fee.
curiositykilledthecat | 10 years and 11 months ago
Let them move out and pay their fee. They need to move into new construction, and you need reasonable tenants. Good luck.
ohmpcivamr | 10 years and 11 months ago
They just made the request to have the ENTIRE BUILDING examined – including the tiles in my basement unit, which they have no access to (and it has no fireplaces) – and have threatened to withhold rent if there is no formal inspection made. So I don’t think just boxing over it is good enough for them, though I asked the property manager to look into that as the suggestion makes the most sense to me. They offered to just leave – but only if we pay their entire broker fee, which is probably more than the cost of the repair. This is getting ridiculous.
ventilated | 10 years and 11 months ago
dorkofwindsor’s explanation is excellent. You need to separate your love of the aesthetics from the issue raised by the tenants. Since you say you’re planning a renovation following expiration of tenant lease in December, you can deal with aesthetics, testing, your own tolerance for risk and exposure, etc., at that time.
dorkofwindsor | 11 years ago
Thanks for the pic. If it was never tested then there is no paper trail to worry about. If you are concerned that your tenants are looking for a payout rather than just spoiled and feeling entitled with your money, then just state that after more thought, as an abundance of caution you decided it is better to close up the front of the fireplace and not disturb anything in the event that it is asbestos – better safe than sorry and leaving it open. Really that is probably the best way to go, after all, and you are addressing your tenants’ concerns in a timely and conservative manner, not to mention appropriately. If they want to knock of the rent due to aesthetics, you can remind them of the language in the lease, or you can offer to let them out of it altogether (occasionally this can be better with high maintenance or ones you think might get litigious), which would let you also address the asbestos thing with no selfish liabilities hanging around.
ohmpcivamr | 11 years ago
Is the reason to cancel the appointment to not know for sure what it is for liability reasons? I’m naive here. What would sealing the summer cover look like? We did buy the place b/c we loved the original details, so I’d rather not entomb everything pretty. 🙂 But at the same time, cost does matter, and we don’t want a lack of promptness to turn into an ongoing issue with these tenants. Thanks for the contractor suggestions!
ventilated | 11 years ago
Quite frankly, handling properly and promptly might be distinctly different than testing the exposed material. Cancel your appointments with abatement experts–you do NOT want to test this material or complicate a straightforward solution. You most definitely want to encapsulate. Every old house in Brooklyn has traces (or more) of lead paint and asbestos somewhere in the building. If you’re not comfortable with DIY, then get a handyman, contractor or chimney company to seal the exposed portion of the summer cover or, as last resort–not recommended–remove the cover entirely and seal the firebox. I think some or all of the following advertise in the Brownstoner directory or have been recommended previously: Manny Lasalle, 917-292-1825; A&A Chimney, 718-953-2836; Big Apple Chimney, 718-648-3998. Also, read this info about abatement: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/asbestos/asbestos_abatement.shtml http://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/indoors/asbestos/laws.htm
ohmpcivamr | 11 years ago
The little lip of material hanging down is the substance in question. I’m assuming it’s all over behind the summer cover. Sheetrocking will solve that? If so, I agree that’s preferable to an abatement while they’re living there.
ohmpcivamr | 11 years ago
@ventilated, I completely agree. Without delving into the details, suffice it to say that these tenants have been rather…demanding…since they moved in. We are extremely prompt with repairs, hired a property manager to respond to them immediately, and use high-quality contractors since we intend to live in the unit they are renting once we have children. At the same time, some requests (‘my windows rattle, i think they need to be replaced’) have simply been beyond the pale, and we have declined. I believe this has created tension. I am concerned that this “discovery” of asbestos is an attempt to exhort a payout. Therefore, we want to make sure that we’re handling everything promptly and properly. We’ve got 3 top-rated Angie’s List abatement experts heading out there within the next two days.
dorkofwindsor | 11 years ago
i’m still confused about the “poking out of the grate”. do you have a photo?
ventilated | 11 years ago
I don’t want to read too much into your post, but tenants don’t “just” discover a problem with fireplace lining (around the damper?); they have to go looking for it, especially in warm weather. If you’ve got a summer cover, remove it and seal the firebox with sheetrock. If no summer cover, one step less. You need to encapsulate the suspect lining for the duration of tenant lease. Don’t disturb, remove or abate while tenants occupy space.
ohmpcivamr | 11 years ago
Thanks for the responses! We aren’t interested in making the fireplaces functional, but also don’t want to just brick them over. They’re in excellent shape and really beautiful. I hope it’s possible to remove the part that’s poking out of the grate and then seal anything that’s in the flue. Does anyone know what this kind of work costs? Or have any asbestos abatement contractors they’d like to recommend? 🙂
cate | 11 years ago
If it’s not crumbling and they are not disturbing it, using it, touching it but it’s just there behind the summer cover, it’s probably not hazardous. Or you could cover it over. The worst thing to do would be remove it. That would release particles and fibers into the air and the house, which would be dangerous.
Green Mountain | 11 years ago
I am asked to replace tiles around Victorian fireplaces, but these were never for wood burning wood. I see asbestos around the old gas burners. No testing needed. The fuzzy white or grey stuff is definitely asbestos. I also see it in electric heaters installed in bathrooms in to the 1950’s, probably more recent too. I was taught how to use asbestos in a public high school shop class, while soldering with an open flame, or casting metal in the 1970’s. It came in rolls like tape. You tear off a piece (no mask) and dip it in water. You wrap it around the part you want to insulate, or form a it in to a lump to support something you won’t be able to hold at high temperature. It was a very common and useful material.
Augustiner | 11 years ago
Yes just close it up thats easiest and least costly. If the lining is asbestos (would be interesting to know if that was stadard practice at some point) the whole flu needs to be ripped out top to bottom. I know the joint sealant can have asbestos, but it looks just regular. In general Asbestos is not really ‘visible’.
dorkofwindsor | 11 years ago
The asbestos inspector should send the sample to a lab as part of his/her service. If it is asbestos, removal is the most expensive option, and usually the last option due to risk of releasing fibers into the air. I highly doubt your tenants could live there while removal was being performed. As for the cost, it would be significant, but these things are bid out on a case by case basis due to the nuances of each situation. A fireplace is an amenity for a tenant, and i would gather that 99.9% of landlords would simply seal up the chimney to encapsulate the asbestos – the safest and most recommended course of action. I could pretty much guarantee that the ROI of giving a tenant a working fireplace amenity vs the investment needed to remove asbestos would be a significant negative proposition for you. When your tenant leaves, you might want to decide to undertake a larger reno project and incorporate the removal into said project. Having said that, the asbestos would not likely be original to the house as it was not in widespread use back then – – but a reno of the chimney in the 40’s-70’s could be asbestos.