Upgrading from Natural Gas Boiler to Modern Heating System

I live in a pre-war 8 Unit coop in Park Slope. We are looking to do a capital improvements project, and at the top of our list is a new heating system. We currently have the boiler in the basement, fed by natural gas, that goes to these cast iron beasts. I want to know everything I can from costs to subsidies. Does anybody know where to begin?

tamarastephenson1

in Heating and Cooling 2 years and 4 months ago

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Lurker | 2 years and 4 months ago

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We converted from oil which supposedly burned around 8 gallons a day in winter 10 years ago to a modern hot water heating system and indirect water heater and our annual bills for a 3 storey for heat/hot water/cooking gas is 1500 as well. And we keep the heat high. Nat gas is complicated now though so I wonder about the expense of electric boilers for heating vs mini split both in price but also effectiveness

stoopsitter | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Cate: Yes, our house is reasonably well insulated. But probably the relatively low bills are because we don’t wash. Seriously though, we are only 3 adults in the house. If there were kids, then between bathing and laundry — and perhaps setting the thermostat higher for their comfort — we’d no doubt be paying much more.

Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago

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@cenobite there is a good chance your existing system could operate much more efficiently with improved venting, insulation, pressure reduction and boiler controller modernization if it hasn’t been maintained optimally in recent era which is common in these old building type steam systems that I most often manage. Give me a call 646-326-8795 if you would like me to discuss and possibly inspect with you

cate | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Brokelin’s advice is excellent and comprehensive. Wow, stoopsitter, that’s a great price. (My oil price reflects the inclusion of the yearly tuneup and level of service, in addition to the cost and delivery of oil.) Do you have a well-insulated house and use little hot water?

stoopsitter | 2 years and 4 months ago

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We have natural gas-heated hot water radiators (cast iron). Agree with Cate and Brokelin about their many advantages. Our National Grid bill last year for a 2-family, 3,200 sq ft house (all heat and hot water) was $1,575.

brokelin | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Meant to add – look into learning about heat pump systems.

brokelin | 2 years and 4 months ago

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You refer to “cast iron beasts,” by which I assume you mean radiators. You sound (forgive me if I am wrong) like one of these people I keep seeing comments from online that think radiator heat is old-fashioned, out-of-date, a bad way to heat, and that radiators are ugly.

Radiant heat from old cast iron radiators is one of the best kinds there is – certainly for an already existing building that has it already. (Yes, you might go geothermal or solar in a new build in a different geographic location, but where you are, your radiators are likely the best form of heating you can have.) Radiant heat is far superior to forced air heat, which I am currently living with and really miss having radiators, whether steam or hot water (I’ve lived with both for decades.). As someone else noted, few people think mini-splits are better, and usually doubt whether they alone can keep you sufficiently warm in winter in this climate. Some claim newer ones can – but even if so, I’d far prefer the radiant heat of radiators to mini-splits.

Keep your radiators. Have your system tweaked to iron out any heating issues. If you have your original tall radiators still (as opposed to baseboard radiant heat that may have been put in a gut renovation), keep them. If you think they are ugly, many look beautiful when taken out and sandblasted and recoated – especially ones with scroll decorations in them, but plain ones can be beautiful, too, once the layers of paint are blasted off. Another coat of paint is much cheaper to just put on them in place. If you just don’t like their looks, metal and wood radiator covers are available, which hide them and give you an extra shelf – and some wood ones are quite nice looking (like furniture, though custom made to fit, so not cheap.)

If your radiators are original, they were likely heated with an oil-fueled boiler, until your building replaced the oil burner with a natural gas one. Depending on when that was done, and how you furnace has lasted, your may need a new furnace, not an entirely new heating “system.” There are newer, more efficient gas ones, which, if memory serves, will likely require that you line your chimneys.

To go all electric in a way that would heat you well is probably beyond the funds available in any 8-unit coop. I have seen articles where individual owners dig deep (literally, in the back yard) for geothermal heat, and/or renovate a gut with passive house construction all over (and perhaps some solar, depending on roof location in relation to sun) to allow all electric heat to work well – but I can’t imagine an 8-unit coop agreeing to such a massive building renovation (if it can even been done while occupied), even if all owners had gobs and gobs of money to spend. Yes, natural gas is going away eventually, but I can’t think it will be soon for occupied, old 8-unit buildings.

Also, if you still have gas stoves and want to cut out using gas altogether, you’d need higher electricity in the outlets to run induction stovetops, which would also require some renovation work in kitchens. The gas from your gas stoves is far more indoor polluting, bad for those in asthma and bad in general, I think, than the gas boiler that burns gas in the basement, assuming it is vented properly.

Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago

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I think that you need a heating guy who specializes in steam to assess your system and see why you say “our heat is bad” before you plunk down 50-100 grand converting to minisplits. which give shitty expensive heat… try any one of the steam guys on the board… chris petri, master plumber or contact me at errol832000@hotmail.com

cate | 2 years and 4 months ago

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We have oil fired hot water radiator heat (and hot water) and we love it. Warm, quiet, works well as long as you get your yearly boiler service and every other year chimney clean. Radiators stay warm for a long time even when heat is off. Superior to forced air. Oil cost was about $3600 in 2021 for 3,000 sf plus cellar row house attached on both sides. Would love to have cooling but feel it is only practical to install when walls are open before move in. For new construction, would consider geothermal with radiant heat and central air.

tamarastephenson1 | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Correct, we have steam heat. I don’t know what source of heat is the best to convert to. I know that our system is bad, and that we need a new one.

Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago

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It sounds like you currently have steam heat…. Exactly what source of heat are you looking to convert to?

lkrshacmzcy | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Making sure everyone in the building is prepared for the cost. An eight unit building means you need to have a double set of inspections; the cost will be high to make sure you pass both. Once you do that, schedule a few different visits to get your proposals. No one can tell you the cost without seeing it since you need those inspections.

lkrshacmzcy | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Making sure everyone in the building is prepared for the cost. An eight unit building means you need to have a double set of inspections; the cost will be high to make sure you pass both. Once you do that, schedule a few different visits to get your proposals. No one can tell you the cost without seeing it since you need those inspections.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Booting this up