THERMOSTAT - smart or not?

Tenant occupied two family with gas-fired steam heat:

The house came with a traditional thermostat but after a year or so, I switched to the Nest which I enjoyed for a few years. Eventually I gave up on the Nest because of glitchy power, communication, and software problems. I went back to a traditional thermostat. At this point, I may have to replace the relay and/or thermostat (intermittent problems).

Opinions on whether to install a different smart thermostat (Ecobee) or stick with a traditional 2 wire heat only Honeywell? I was thinking of relocating the thermostat to a common hallway so that I don’t disturb tenants if it needs troubleshooting.

rachelchancey

in Heating and Cooling 1 month ago

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jonathanvalentino | 2 weeks ago

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@72fmechanical That’s not so much a sales pitch – more of an offer. But thanks, I’ll reach out in 50 years when this one goes bad.

I do recommend keeping an eye out for a NYC Sanitation SAFE Disposal event in 2026 to have them recycled properly.

https://www.nyc.gov/site/dsny/what-we-do/programs/safe-disposal-events.page

72fmechanical | 3 weeks ago

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@jonathanvalentino I have a better sales pitch for you. Let me know the next time you’re looking for a mercury filled thermostat. My guys bring them to me and put them on my desk. I have several but I can’t sell or install them.

chrispetriplumbing | 3 weeks ago

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I do just want to point out a few things out:
-A heating unit only fires when a thermostat tells it to.
-A thermostat tells the heating unit to fire based on your setting or programming.
-The fault 99% of the time is in the installation or user, not the product…this applies to the above.
-Inefficiencies 99.9% of the time is not the cycling on and off of the heat, it is the 20+ year old boiler

cate | 3 weeks ago

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FWIW, Honeywell makes a modern round analog thermostat that does not appear to use mercury. Here is the owner’s manual/spec sheet: https://digitalassets.resideo.com/damroot/Original/10004/69-1959EFS.pdf

jonathanvalentino | 3 weeks ago

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@master-plumber Yes, watching many of my friends suffer painful deaths due to thermostat mercury exposure was horrible but my mother is in her 80’s so she should be ok. C’mon seriously. I understand the sales pitch but….

Correct, the Ecobee had power issues so I disconnected that very quickly. The decrease in usage was in comparison to the simple programmable Honeywell – even with the swing and CPH adjusted. Absolutely, balancing the system and installing an “antiquated” thermostat most definitely was the reason for the decrease. Leaving the thermostat at a constant temperature that is comfortable is way more efficient for an older steam system than trying to hit a range throughout the day.

I’ll quote you from an earlier post:

“Steam heat is a simple system never designed to meet multiple temperature targets per day and that trying to meet those targets daily is counterproductive to efficiency goals.”

That is the one thing every so called expert in HVAC forums agree on.

master-plumber | 3 weeks ago

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@jonathanvalentino I used to preach that gospel to anyone who’d listen but the truth is the new technology is both mechanically sound and remarkably convenient.
You sourcing an antiquated thermostat filled with poison did not save you 25% on your fuel usage. It just doesn’t work that way.
The problems you had with your Ecobee, which is what I have in my house, all stemmed from how the thermostat was powered and programmed.

jonathanvalentino | 3 weeks ago

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I replaced the basic two-wire programmable Honeywell in my mother’s 1900 Victorian last year that malfunctioned with an Ecobee smart one. The typical power issues and quirks ensued.

I posted this exact question to the HVAC forum on Reddit, and the overwhelming consensus was that steam heat works best with the most primitive thermostat. Smart thermostats, or even simple programmable ones, are designed for forced air which needs to cycle on and off frequently. Cast iron radiators need time to heat up, and when they do, give off heat a lot long than say aluminum hot water ones. More modern thermostats will fire the boiler unnecessarily at more frequent intervals. On some programmables you can adjust the cycles per hour, but even that is usually just a range of 1 to 10 and even the minimum setting may be too frequent.

I had the system balanced as suggested and purchased a NOS Honeywell mercury T87 thermostat on EBay. I set it to 70 degrees and it is never touched. The house has never been more comfortable (on all floors) in the 70 years that she has lived there. The boiler cycles on only 3 times an hour (maybe 4 on a frigid day) and gas usage has decreased by about 25%.

I was skeptical but now I am a believer.

MasterPlvmber | 1 month ago

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Weighing in here again…

I really enjoy the fact that technology has brought residential thermostats to where they are right now. I have, for decades, been asked to installed “wireless” systems that just have never worked well or reliably and there are several technologies on the market now that just make them all work. Wi-Fi, radio frequency, Bluetooth, whatever. It is now possible, and even advisable to install a thermostat wherever you can have it read only remote sensors that you place where they are convenient for you.
I’ve been using it in my own home for the past two years and it works well. And when it doesn’t, it’s no big deal: pick up your phone and make whatever change suits you for the moment/hour/day/etc.

I use Ecobee though I often hear Honeywell is preferred for some reason.
All of that said, there is truth to the fact that steam heat is a simple system never designed to meet multiple temperature targets per day and that trying to meet those targets daily is counterproductive to efficiency goals. That’s a post or another time.

gates_ave | 1 month ago

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I live on the first floor of the two family home. I have no connection issues. My understanding is that the sensors, like the thermostat connect via the wifi. Our wifi, Verizon fios seems strong enough to get signal, we have a mesh box in the front and middle of the 1st floor to get consistent wifi signal. I don’t have a sensor in my tenants apartment, but I’m pretty sure it will be well with the wifi we have. We installed in the basement because my husband wanted to install the system himself and didn’t have the tools to fish the new 3 prong cable to the 1st floor. We disconnected the old 2 prong cables from the furnace and connected a new 3 prong cable to the furnace and the ecobee. Has been working great and we use our phones to change the temperatures as needed or program the automatic temps changes, turn off/on as needed.

rachelchancey | 1 month ago

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By “keep” the nest in the basement, I mean “move” the Nest to the basement.

rachelchancey | 1 month ago

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@gates_ave,
I am struggling with this issue now: whether to move the Nest thermostat and add sensors? I like the idea of having physical access to the Nest without having to disrupt my tenants and the ability to check temperature throughout the building. Do you have any connection problems with the temp sensors? What factors went into designing the system this way?

@masterplvmber, what do you think of this idea? Should I keep the nest in the basement and put a sensor upstairs?

gates_ave | 1 month ago

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We now use an ecobee with two separate sensors. We have a furnace and had an old two wire thermostat. We decided to add the missing 3rd cable, placing the ecobee thermostat close to the furnace basement(wall separates it). We use one of the sensors on the coldest room and control the heat based on that sensor. We use the other sensor just to check temperature on the other end of the floor or any other place around the building.

rachelchancey | 1 month ago

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Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I purchased a new two-wire honeywell as a backup option, but I plan to reinstall my Nest with a dedicated power wire and isolation relay as MP suggested. It will allow me to monitor and adjust remotely (which is preferred) and there is the hope that this specific installation will be stable longterm.

bobjbkln | 1 month ago

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I agree with Brownstone Home Inspection. A simple (non-internet) two wire programmable thermostat (under $40) is the way to go.

rachelchancey | 1 month ago

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MasterPlvmber, I left a message with your company to discuss options. That C wire and isolation relay is one such solution I want to discuss. I would love to monitor and adjust temp remotely and ensure the glitches are gone. Maybe my 3rd generation Nest isn’t ready for the trash heap?

Would you also suggest wireless sensor(s)? It’s a two-family, ground floor apt with duplex on top.

MasterPlvmber | 1 month ago

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We install Ecobee and other smart thermostats commonly in steam heated homes. The combined installation of what’s called an isolation relay makes it work flawlessly but a 3rd “C” wire is always needed to eliminate the glitching associated with these power-consuming thermostats.

Brownstone Home Inspection | 1 month ago

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with the kind of thermo i mention below, once programmed and the system is balanced (the proper vents are in place) something like this should work forever with no adjustment. i mean for years.

Brownstone Home Inspection | 1 month ago

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we have a hard-wired, programmable thermostat. It is not a traditional thermostat in the sense that some one does not move a dial and raise of lower the setpoint to make the heat come on and off. with a programmable, you set a time of day that the temp kicks up (say to 68 degrees from an overnight setting of 60). that time of day could be say 5:30 am do the house is warmer by the time the tenants wake at 7 am. if the tenants all leave during the day and you know that for a fact and you know they leave 9 ish, you can program that temp to kick back to say 65 at say 8:30. and then, if you know they arrive home at say 5:30, you kick it to 70 degrees at say 4:30 and keep it there until say 9:30 or 10 or a little later if they stay up late. then you go back to 60 for the overnight. You can adjust these times for each day of the week; keep it on 68 or 70 on saturday or sunday.

keep it in a common hall could throw it off a little if that hall is colder or hotter than the apts.

if you put it in one apt that is hotter than the other, it will cause the heat to kick off too soon for the cooler apt will get warm. if you have problems like this, you can change the vents on some radiators if you have steam; it a room remains cooler, put a larger vent in. if a room heats too fast and shuts the system down before the other rooms are warm enough, put a smaller vent on the rad in that room to slow the entry of steam into the radiator.

since it is an apt and may come under laws in so far as temp and times of day, check up on that.

Putnamdenizen | 1 month ago

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I just replaced my ancient two-wire thermostat with a new 2-wire “not smart” thermostat. I’ve decided with my ancient steam system in my two unit row house (I occupy one unit) that there is no need to do anything but set it at one temperature all day and night and let it run.