Found: company that installs hydronic electric radiant plus cooling

I posted here a while back about my interest in a heat pump + radiator system, which is common in Europe but uncommon here. I was told by various contractors and plumbers that they don’t exist, that they are not efficient, that they don’t work in cold climates, that they won’t work in a whole house–all of which puzzled me since they are routinely installed in big old houses in cold regions like Scandinavia and the UK.

Anyway… I finally found a new company right here in Brooklyn run by a guy who is very knowledgeable and very passionate about these European-style “air to water” systems. It’s called BK Climate Solutions, and I just put down a deposit.

It uses a heat pump like for mini-splits but connects to water-filled pipes for radiators or radiant floors. It also heats your water and pumps out cold air for cooling in summer, except instead of those fat units on the wall, the air comes from very slim slits on the wall or grates on the floor. (Obviously easier as part of a major reno when walls are open.)

Yes, it’s way more expensive than a mini-split system, but there are big rebates available through Con Ed and through NYSERDA’s EmPower + program (if you qualify as moderate income, which for Kings County is defined as less than $101,800). And it apparently costs less to run than a mini-split because it’s even more efficient.

Article about the owner’s own renovation and heat system is here: https://www.achrnews.com/articles/153824-project-files-episode-65-zero-emission-hydronic-heat-at-brooklyn-brownstone

I can’t say yet what it’s like to live with, but thought I’d pass this along in case anyone is interested.

annissa12

in Heating and Cooling 1 year and 3 months ago

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chrispetriplumbing | 1 weeks ago

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Very interested to see how they would do this without a full renovation.
Installing Radiant without a renovation sounds like a headache alone but always love to hear their process!

torreblanco | 3 weeks ago

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Annissa-
Looking to doing heat pump originated hydronic in my brownstone. Assuming you had a winter with it at this point? How did it go??

annissa12 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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@GreenwoodGoblin You are more than welcome to come see the new electric radiant heat/cooling system when it’s finished (April?). I think what I’m doing is lots easier when everything’s being torn up but I think there are ways to do it without so much mess (ie slim wall-hung radiators rather than the fan-coil radiators hidden in floor vents). The brilliant Itai and Chester of BK Climate Solutions can talk you though it when you’re ready. Their website is under construction now but there’s a phone number on it. And my work # is 631-742-8045 if you want a tour. (The house is in the south Slope,)

jrs84o | 1 year and 3 months ago

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@GreenwoodGoblin Just my two cents… I know I’ve stressed this to a fault, but IMHO it’s absolutely the most important thing to understand before you choose a HVAC system:

Have someone come out and determine the heat envelope of your property.

If a brownstone does not have the proper insulation, there is no way to fix it inexpensively (and most likely without replacing windows) and you will end up burning double the spac’ed BTUs to feel comfortable.

We found this out the hard way.. we installed 40k BTU on each floor— but really need 100k BTU because of heat loss.

Aircon in summer is no problem as the air handlers remove the humidity easily cooling the rooms… we never operate the heat pumps in “cooling mode.”

My heat pumps run 10-12 hours a day on my Parlor level from Dec-Mar because we have very bad insulation AND they NEVER reach the set point… so all the added inverter technology simply goes to waste and the units burn about $10/day, 4 kwatts/hr electric.

That’s why I’m going with a 2stage Forced Air system which will simply blow gobs of hot air without any sophi sticated controls.

Upstairs, we only run the heat pumps 3-4 hours a day before we retire, as we prefer it a bit cooler while we sleep and simply turn the whole system off, which is not optimal as everything needs to heat back up in the room every evening.

In any case, I have not heard of anyone else using a two type Mechanical heating system here in Brooklyn, although I know it’s becoming a bit more common to put a heat pump on to a ducted gas or oil system for an added boost in the dead of winter or conversely, as you suggest, heat in the shoulder seasons.

workisfun | 1 year and 3 months ago

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We have 7 Myson Decor flat panel radiators (hydronic), that I got from Utica Plumbing and Heating. Each one has its own loop to the HE combi boiler. We run them at 130*. Very happy with them. Various sizes and configurations.

Guest User | 1 year and 3 months ago

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850… you generally have enough room to use your old chimney as a chase for your vent and fresh air for a HE boiler, especially if you are using polypro as your venting material

jrs84o | 1 year and 3 months ago

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I have NOT chosen my contractor yet. The guys who did my original install- 10 years ago – was Chris Stewart, who has unfortunately passed away.

I’m only at the planning stage for my new configuration now, and was working with an engineer who was researching my chimney flue situation. He is Ken Chen, at Kon Ho Lee Engineering in Bay Ridge 917-913-3688. They are not strictly HVAC people.. so may not be exactly who you need.

eg66 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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850 mph do you mind sharing who is doing your install? We are leaning more and more toward retaining steam radiators with a new boiler (or in a dream scenario hydronic radiators) + non hyperheat handlers for shoulder season, a/c, and some small, sunny rooms that don’t need a full radiator. Appreciate your intel it’s been helpful.

jrs84o | 1 year and 3 months ago

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Agreed…. Each home has its own unique “Heat Profile.”

But I would not get too hung up on the “heating profile” reports which take your address and other variables into a software package to determine the “best”system for your property…

I had one done and it was NOT as helpful as talking to a couple of contractors who had better “real world” answers… and can really look at the insulation envelope of your property.

I’ve had steam, forced air, hydro, electrostatic/resistance as well as electric-fed infra-red and ceramic, plus even wood fueled heating in properties I’ve owned or rented.

They each have their own capabilities and purposes.

Here in Brooklyn, after 10 years of exclusively using Mitsu Hyper Heat heat pumps on two floors (no basement heating)….. I’m switching to a 2 stage, 100k btu gas fired, 90%+ efficient condensing forced air furnace for Basement and Parlor levels.

I may have to go with a non-condensing 80% unit, as running new double wall venting may not be possible in my place… I still have NOT got a good answer from my engineer friend about running d ouble wall vents up existing chimney.

Switching mainly because I want to heat the basement, and a single duct run with appropriate dampers can feed both Basement and Parlor levels of my house.

And I’m sticking to the heat pumps for the top floor— although I’m gonna break my one large 36k btu unit into two smaller 24k units feeding two air handlers each…

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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And we have to be careful of marketing buzzwords that mask the true nature of things.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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850mph. This is why more research is needed. We have to compare apples to apples and that is very hard to do with the uk and ireland because their climates are milder than ours here in the northeast and the auxiliary heat will kick in more here.

jrs84o | 1 year and 3 months ago

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I should mention…the type of “hydro” heat units we used in London were not “steam heat” units but units which simply circulate hot water which radiates heat through “fins” or “channels” pressed into the room unit. There were no fans or blowers (like modern heat pumps) to circulate air around/off the radiators which simply follow the rule of thermodynamics where “heat goes to cold.”

The room sizes in London were perhaps 80% of the room size in a Brooklyn brownstone, and ceiling heights were not greater than 8’ — which probably made a huge difference in heating… we had no cold air conditioning…

The whole system was fed by a 14”x20” on demand electric water heater which sat in our kitchen cupboard… I can’t remember the wattage,

jrs84o | 1 year and 3 months ago

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I have had Mitsu Hyper Heat units for almost ten years here in Brooklyn.

They blow 110 degrees at the air handler, and circulate to the center of the room at around 90 degrees— lower than your body temperature— which is why they always feel a bit cold on the skin when draft air circulates through the room.

It’s a subtle point I have mentioned on this forum before… But until you experience it, especially coming from forced air or hydro like we have historically done in NYC, you will not even think about it.

I also owned a property in London for over 20 years which had “European-Style” hydro units which produced no steam which RADIATED at around 150 degrees off of the radiator “foils” and circulated above 100 degrees into the center of the room.

There is NO COMPARISON….. Hydro Units are the way to go for warmth and cost.

But BE AWARE:

Its all about “envelope” insulation… if your property is not insulated “correctly” BOTH type of units will simply run all day— and never reach the set point.

hkapstein | 1 year and 3 months ago

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+1 to eman. 140 might work with hot water radiators if you have a pretty large amount of them, or a very low heat load, but in europe air to water heat pumps are available that can delivery at least 160 for radiators.

Guest User | 1 year and 3 months ago

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If you go for a high temp heat pump hydronic setup for heat you still need air handlers for cooling, so there is no savings on equipment at all. Same with a lower temp option with radiant heat … it does not work for cooling due to condensation problems

Guest User | 1 year and 3 months ago

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Arctic Heat Pump offers heating /cooling heat load and design services for a small fee… you send them plans and they do the calculations
https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/manual-j-design-service.html
Chiltrix likes to approve your system design plans before selling you the equipment.
I’ve only serviced Chiltrix units in a system that incorporated gas fired high efficiency boilers that kick in at 45 degrees F since the cost of running the chillers becomes prohibitively cost ineffective at that point. Of course a hybrid system adds to the cost significantly. And I hate to admit it but I hate heating via air handlers.
The Arctic equipment is also way more expensive than conventional heating / cooling systems. You might also want to add a glycol component in the water loop to prevent equipment freezing if your power fails, another layer of complexity and expense.
I haven’t seen the Arctic systems used anywhere in NYC so far but they seem to be the closest thing to the Samsung and Daikin high temp heat pump boilers available in Europe

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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Greengoblin: this can be done. Its being done all over. The question is at what cost and for too many in this country who have to worry about basic needs such as housing, healthcare and college education, the costs put green technology out of reach.

I am now in a class with Building Performance Institute and that is the start in a series of classes and certifications that will allow me to register with NYS as an approved Home Energy Auditor and speak about how to make improvements. Give me six months and I will be able to speak some authority on this subject. Know that it appears to be as much about making improvements to the physical structure as it is about modern mechanical systems.

And for those of us who belive in this as a global initiative and want to see us become leaders in green energy or at least become on par with europe, we have an uphill battle. I am on eastern long island with family right now and any time i mention anything about progressive policies, initiatives with green energy, or make any comparisons with Europe, these people (the polit e ones) change the subject. One of the more vocal ones told me two weeks ago that “she was going to move to florida and start a revolution” (and “kill people”; she probably wants to kill the same people who would love to give her healthcare and send her to college; i tried to continue the conversation but my wife kicked me in the shin under the table). Fortunately, last night, i had someone from Norway sitting across from me (we had a few conversations on the side and i am going to consult her about the heating systems they are using and will be reporting back here).

eg66 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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Countrymouse, your setup (smallish footprint, already doing insulation) seems ideal for this project, and I am intrigued! After being very certain we’d convert to HVAC with minisplit, we are living with our old gas boiler for this winter and thinking it through. I would love to be rid of gas, and heat pump hydronic systems sound cool. Just haven’t been able to find anyone who can tell me if one can fit it into an older home without a major reno. Please share when you finish! I’ll bring you a bottle of wine if I can come see it too 🙂

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 3 months ago

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And don’t let anyone from europe tell us how green they are. When we sit down at a table with europeans of the same socioeconomic group as ourselves, it always comes down to the same thing, money. They don’t realize it themselves until we talk to them and learn why they buy certain things but it is because of financial incentives (solar and heat) or penalties (taxes on fuel or big engines in cars).