Ancient boiler - replace?
We have a brownstone in Park Slope with a boiler that hails from (best guess) the 1950s. Its a Weil McLain No. 57 Series and has never given us any issues. My HVAC service guy keeps telling me to replace it (because “it’s going to fail on you at the worst possible time”) but is also clearly avid to sell me a new one, so it’s hard to know whether to take his advice. He says it’s so old he can’t inspect it. It has zero controls/bells/whistles that I can see.
I started browsing discussions about replacing old boilers and got the sense there’s a lot to learn. So I reached out to a mechanical consultant /plumber who analyzes heating systems and who, for $1,750, will write up a report evaluating the boiler, analyzing the house’s needs, and giving me replacement options.
So my questions are:
(1) Should I replace the ancient boiler, or not fix what ain’t broke?
(2) Is it reasonable/necessary to hire a consultant for this? If so, is $1,750 what this ought to cost?
pictures of the old girl are attached, for what it’s worth.
Thank you!
mindlin
in Heating and Cooling 3 years and 7 months ago
18
Please log in, in order to post replies!
18 replies
Lurker | 3 years and 7 months ago
Sorry, that’s 720 therms total from Nov to March. That’s an awful lot so perhaps this won’t be so pronounced for most people
Lurker | 3 years and 7 months ago
On a related note, got an email today from Nat Grid saying to expect avg $49 extra per month this winter for nat gas, based on 720 therms monthly usage.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 7 months ago
I really enjoyed MP’s post. It was very informative and I agree paying for this will save anyone a lot of time/costs and angst. It pays for itself. Wish all of us knew this before we embarked on work as this would have been a valuable and helpful step.
On a related note I want understand the POV on traditional boilers vs tankless. I’ve seen MP and eman weigh in a few times. Traditional boilers seem to last for years yet people seem to be switching to the combi-boilers and splits. NYS/enery companies seem to be encouraging the switch.
lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 7 months ago
^I am a talker not a write, so I would never have the patience to type all that out. Just know, he is right
lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 7 months ago
^I am a talker not a write, so I would never have the patience to type all that out. Just know, he is right
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 7 months ago
The very nice gentleman who wrote this post called me for the $1,750 consultation he’s referencing.
I’m well aware this looks like a big number and while it’s not worth it to some, others see the value in its payback potential for decades to come. The call I got was about a homeowner who felt like he was being talked into a boiler replacement by his air conditioning company when it might not be necessary and without anything that seemed like what might be considered a comprehensive diagnostic evaluation. He was looking for a third party with no financial interest in the matter to evaluate the system and deliver verifiable figures that would help determine whether a full boiler replacement would be the right next move for him and his home.
This service, which I get called for all the time lately now that top-tier mechanical talent has seemingly left the area in droves, includes a full accounting of the system and something that is called either an EDR calculation for steam or a heat loss calculation for hot water systems. While I wholeheartedly agree that a boiler over 30 years old is best replaced without much additional thought, the proper evaluation of a boiler, if that’s what one wants, is done with diagnostic tools by people who know how to use them and interpret the behaviors and results of the performed testing.
Roughly 8 out of 10 of the boilers I am called to replace are 2x oversized and frequently much more than that. Installing an oversized boiler means committing to excessive fuel usage, heating imbalance, and elevated maintenance costs for the next 30 years. Why would you do that? Boilers are ridiculously expensive these days and plumbers are paying astronomical prices for the materials required to install them properly and according to NYC Codes. Trust me when I say you want the smallest one that will serve your needs.
Putting diagnostic tools to work, doing the math to determine a proper, most effective, and efficient boiler type, size, and model all take time by someone who knows what they are doing. That information then must be put into words, annotated pictures and diagrams that make sense to any homeowner or co-op board to help them make the right decisions. The resulting document provides a baseline for any future work on the system as well as a written document with a Master Plumber’s license number on it that may indemnify the client’s installer/contractor or co-op president if a legal issue or any question about the validity or necessity of the purchase should arise.
All this is where the fee comes from.
Professional Engineers, or PEs, charge a great deal more and they don’t do what I do and they don’t know what I know. I’m not unique but there aren’t more than 3-4 other guys like me who serve our area who are similarly qualified.
I don’t like discussing anyone’s prices for anything on the internet because posts like this frequently lack full perspective, but I feel like this post had the potential for serious misrepresentation.
I started my consulting firm, 72°F Mechanical Consulting, LLC, almost 5 years ago after 30 years in the industry. I am found here: www.72Fmechanical.com and I give classes here www.generalsociety.org while I hope to someday soon retire from here www.GatewayPlumbing.com
resident2 | 3 years and 7 months ago
I once had a three family Brownstone in Fort Greene with a very similar aged Weil McLain boiler in it, the seller who was a plumber specializing in Heating, said “never replace, just clean it and look after it.” I never replaced it, I did what he told me. The boiler never gave me any problems and compared to a similar boiler in another 3 family, I had at the same time was more efficient on the gas bill by about 20%. I eventually sold the house & told the new buyers the same thing…. a few years later the street sewer backed up, flooded all the basements in the row of Brownstones. The Insurance would only pay to replace the whole boiler, not to repair it !!? The new “super efficient Weil McClain” costs more to run & breaks down on a regular basis!
If I was you, I would study for a few years the options of heat pumps, solar energy etc …. gas will soon be out of date, but the new systems are not yet tried & tested enough.
Guest User | 3 years and 7 months ago
even boilers from the 90s don’t necessarily have spill switches built in. you can also install CO detection completely separate from the boiler. i would highly recommend holding off on this right now since the boiler isn’t giving signs that it’s in trouble (leaks, hard to start up, shuts off randomly, etc.) but it would probably be wise to begin working on a plan for what you would replace it with when it comes to that. asbestos abatement will almost certainly be a part of that job so it might behoove you to do some testing in advance so you know what you’re in for. if your HVAC guy is so concerned about the safety of your boiler, ask him to give yo pricing to improve the safety of it. any boiler you install now will never last this long so if you’re happy with the way the boiler’s running now, stick with it.
Guest User | 3 years and 7 months ago
even boilers from the 90s don’t necessarily have spill switches built in. you can also install CO detection completely separate from the boiler. i would highly recommend holding off on this right now since the boiler isn’t giving signs that it’s in trouble (leaks, hard to start up, shuts off randomly, etc.) but it would probably be wise to begin working on a plan for what you would replace it with when it comes to that. asbestos abatement will almost certainly be a part of that job so it might behoove you to do some testing in advance so you know what you’re in for. if your HVAC guy is so concerned about the safety of your boiler, ask him to give yo pricing to improve the safety of it. any boiler you install now will never last this long so if you’re happy with the way the boiler’s running now, stick with it.
RobertGMarvin
in Heating and Cooling 3 years and 7 months ago
Of course I’m sure that modern boilers and furnaces have spill switches built in. (Don’t they?)
RobertGMarvin
in Heating and Cooling 3 years and 7 months ago
RE: CO, my hot air furnace is about 56 years old. Back in the ‘70s Brooklyn Union Gas installed a spill switch that shuts the thing off if the flue gets blocked. I don’t think utilities like BUG’s successor National Grid do this sort of thing any more, but your HVAC company probably can do it. IIRC it wasn’t very expensive and it’s an important safety feature. , .
mindlin | 3 years and 7 months ago
(By the way, it is gas fueled)
mindlin | 3 years and 7 months ago
Thanks, this is incredibly helpful. Another consideration for me is safety – our HVAC guy listed a litany of safety features (eg CO detection) that ours does not have.
brokelin | 3 years and 7 months ago
My brownstone coop had an old boiler – older than yours, the kind that is the size of a room, like the one in my first childhood home that was built in the 1930s and still had its original furnace, which had been converted from coal. We never replaced it (because in coop hell everybody has to agree to do something). And that was a few decades ago, when the gas company was offering large incentives, basically paying to replace old oil boilers.
You can make the choice yourself, so it all comes down to two or three things.
(1) Your tolerance for it failing at the worst possible time. I do remember a neighbor with an identical brownstone, and probably a similar era boiler, telling me his failed, and the basement was full of water as a result, on Christmas. A current neighbor of mine on a very limited fixed income just replaced a perfectly good refrigerator, the old side by side kind that last forever, because “it could die at any time.” I thought she was nuts – I’d use a fridge that was working well until it died. But I would think differently about a boiler if I co uld afford to replace it. Only you can determine your risk tolerance for it failing mid-winter, and having a temporary one running outside on the street til it can get replaced, if you’d need that – talk to someone who has gone through that for more information about what you’d be in for if, no, WHEN that happens.
(2) We spent a ton of money every winter on oil. We would have saved a whole lot every year by switching to gas and having a more efficient boiler. Talk to others who have a brownstone similar in size and insulation upgrades to see how much extra you are spending. In our case, we were overspending by a huge factor on fuel. It also comes down to your choice to spend a more for fuel every year but put off the larger expense of replacement – like a choice between spending on repairs for an old car every year v. buying a new car. Only you know which you’d prefer to do. I don’t know what’s going on with getting gas right now, but you probably still have gas service to your brownstone for cooking – look into what it would take to install a gas-fueled boiler, or if you can even get gas service if you currently don’t have it.
(3) Our old boiler had an octopus of pipes covered in asbestos. If yours still does, that’s something to consider, not only the added cost of having it safely removed before removing the boiler, but also what it will look like if the boiler dies with it still on there, and how getting it removed then will make boiler replacement take longer.
I wouldn’t pay to analyze your boiler. It is old, it is inefficiently using oil (or gas if it is gas-fueled), and it will die at some point. You can probably find out a lot by getting quotes on new systems from the people who will replace them. Depending on what they tell you, you can decide whether you want to get an independent opinion on what your building needs before contracting for a new boiler. I think you should gather as much information as you can, so that if you decide to leave it as is for now, at least your can replace it more quickly if it fails if you have information on what you would likely choose to replace it with, and who you might hire to do it.
I’d also look into whether the shipping crisis for durable goods is affecting boilers – if there are delays in getting them right now. I have no idea, but if there is a potential delay in getting them, as there is with kitchen appliances right now, to me that would factor in on the side of not waiting for the old one to fail.
ejcarroll | 3 years and 7 months ago
When got my brownstone house 40 years ago oil burner was cast iron beast decades old. Replaced with Weil McClain 1/3 the size.. Even old oil burners have replacement burners that are energy efficient.
Rick | 3 years and 7 months ago
* peace of mind
Rick | 3 years and 7 months ago
I would not hire a consultant to point out the obvious . My boiler is from the 70’s, it is still working but and I plan to replace it next summer for piece of mind. A new boiler will be more efficient and save you money.
mozeeatupu | 3 years and 7 months ago
If it’s working, let it be.
I think that’s an oil burner so you might want to eventually switch to gas using some utility grant if some issue arises.