Wood burning stove inside historic fireplace?
Shopping around is often the mistake a homeowner makes. If you call three contractors who have been doing something for 25 years and they say one thing and offer a high price, that is where the job should be. If someone shops enough and learns a little and can push the wrong bottom feeding contractor (as i tried asking if the stove flue can be stuck 3′ up the existing flue), they will manipulate the contractor into doing something that should not be done and that contractor will not convey the risks, if he even knows them. Contractors who fall into this should not be doing the specialty they are doing. They are handymen or opportunists.
I have noticed that people on here assume that the shoddy work was always out there and this is the way it is and has been and we have to accept it. There was a time that you called a contractor who told you what had to be done and he was correct. We are not that removed from that. If people learn how to avoid the bottom feeders, they will have less trouble.
I know, the temptation of a low price or saving money is attractive . But with this and many other things, things we might consider luxuries, if the homeowner cannot do them correctly and safely, they should not be doing them at all.
I keep saying this here, i worked in lower management for a professional property management firm and for commercial buildings in nyc. We did not make the mistakes that i read about here and when i read what you said, i realize why we did not make those mistakes. If you shop around for something, that is the mistake.
Raise the bar urbandad. It will be good for everyone, the homeowners, the contractors, the kid walking down the street, the city.
stevecym
in General Discussion 4 years and 2 months ago
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colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
Has anyone around here done this? Our fireplace is wonderful but needs work to bring it back to safe, functioning condition — notably a rebuild of the firebox (with firebrick), parging of smoke chamber, and damper installation. The high price tag of this has us looking at our options, especially since despite all of this, our flue is in tremendous shape despite its age.
The efficiency of a wood burning stove, as well as the cleanliness and the self-contained burn has us considering getting one to insert within our oversized firebox, hooking it up to the flue and calling it a day. Has anyone else done this?
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
I know someone who did this with a more modern set up. A 1960′ ranch style. I helped install it. I was a kid and dont recall a lot but he ran a flue right down the chimney and had a sort of long stove that went right back into the fire box and right under the flue.
See what what others say about doing this in an old brownstone. I am not sure about sending a flue down a chimney but others will know as they line these things all the time
My father heats with wood using a modern air tight wood burning stove and seems happy with it. Of course he is not paying for wood.
For a long time the only modern wood stoves you could get looked just like that, cheap modern reproductions. But i think there are better products out now that will look the part iin an old house. With enamel on them.
I’d install one if I thought i could get away with it.
colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
Our flue is in fine shape, I don’t see why would need to run anything down it. While I appreciate your story, I’m really looking to hear from homeowners who have already done such a thing in their homes.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
Ok, i can say this. When we installed that one with a flue, it was the 1970s and that chimney lining was in great shape. So what i am saying is, and i may be wrong, that even if your chimney is in great shape, you will be putting a liner or flue in. I dont think its as simple as sitting the stove in the box.
You are correct, you need someone who has done this recently. But my money says a metal lining will be part of it.
JohnHancock | 4 years and 2 months ago
My recollection was that any new installations of fireplaces were prohibited bc of the air quality issues, also fire safety regulations I think are pretty strict, I remember reading here how neighbors fire places heated their walls so much that they were afraid of starting fires , a lot of the brownstone fireplaces were never built for wood fires but for other heat sources. I would definitely do more research before popping one of these in without an expert looking at this
stevecym | 4 years and 2 months ago
The reason a flue lining is preferred is so the chimney draws air through the stove and not from outside it.
Some of this is explained on google. You are correct in that you need someone to explain how they did this in an old brownstone and these chimneys are different than modern ones.
I can add this: people do use unlined chimneys for stoves all the time but the stove is not put in the firebox below. There is no firebox so a hole is made say through the wall and brick and into the chimney and a stove pipe is inserted in that. Not sure if you can close the box below to do that or would want to.
stevecym | 4 years and 2 months ago
Jh, they have a fireplace so would it matter if they put a stove in it? Grandfathered.
They burned coal. Coal is hot but i wonder if the heat radiates outward into the room and not up the flue.
I had toyed with something like this here but we do not have a fire place and dropped when that law came about.
colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
We are grandfathered. I’ll say again, the chimney is not unlined, it is in fabulous shape much to the surprise of the three reputable folks we’ve had inspect it and provide quotes to bring the fireplace into the next century.
There are no issues with the flue, only our firebox (which is not firebrick) hence why I’m intrigued at adding a stove, and connecting it to the already well-maintained flue.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
So, first let me say doorsby and stevecym are the same. I don’t purposely switch these, it happens on my handheld.
Most stoves seem to have a 6″ flue on them so if you have a 6″ flue lining in the chimney, i dont see why it would not work.
I did just look something up. It seems that too big a flue out through the chimney and to small a flue out of the stove are not a good combination as creosote deposits can occur as things cool down. Read about this or talk to a pro.
So you are saying the fire box is not great. I have seen people put up some pretty thin brick lining on the wall and put the stove pretty close to the wall in a corner and it is fine. And this on wood frame and plaster construction – in the burbs. If i did this here, it would have been close to plaster and brick with perhaps some brick lining put up to absorb some heat. No firebox. You have a firebox but wont really be burning a fire against the walls of it. If you are really worried you could smooth over some of the loose stuff with appropriate mortar (they make mortar for this) or lin e it with something new over what is crumbling.
Again, there wont be a fire there against it so it should be fine. Do i think you need new fire brick? I am most certainly am not qualified to say but if i were putting this in an old fire box in this house, i would not be putting fire brick in.
I am still only pulling ideas from what i have seen and heard so you still need to have someone check this out. If no one else comments with better info, i have someone i can call.
If you want to buy a small pot bellied stove, real small, i have one here for sale. Probably not what you want in that fire box
colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
I’ll say it again, I’m looking for input from those who have done this. If you have not, there is no harm in scrolling past. It is so much appreciated, thanks!
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
Ok, in 1977 i helped a man put a stove in a fire place. He had already installed a sheet metal flue liner. The stove had about 4″ behind it and was deeper than wide and at about 12 to 15″ to either side. He could not fit in the along the side of the stove to put the flue on it so i did.
There are people on here who have never started a fire in a stove, never listened to a chimney fire rage in a flue and do not know what it means to bank down a stove. They dont realize that the flue better be higher than the roof line and dont realize that when it is, air will always rise through it due to stack effect, fire or no fire. Some of these people will belive that an air tight stove is air tight but they will know more than many of us because they read it on google. They dont have details or stories though because they never did any of this.
I have been in hundreds of brownstones and have never seen this done. These stoves are a suburban thing. For a while in the late 70s, everyone and their mother was getting one.
Others may have an opinion on the need for f ire brick but their opinion will be limited by your description of the condition of box. Others may feel as i do that fire brick will not be neccessary because they, like me, have seen these stoves put quite close to sheetrock walls with only 1/2″ brick veneer on them. From that situation, they may deduce that an old fireplace may handle the heat from the stove.
It will be a rare person who has done this in the city. With what i have told you, you can read a little more. You can also wait for our learned friends to come on and tell us what they read in text books. One of them is probably reading about this right now – ready to back or discredit what i am saying. . Either way, there are too many what ifs with this – the flue size among other things- that even if you find someone who has done this on a brownstone, you will want a stove installer to look at your situation. I am not sure we have stove installers on here. They do exist and i think there is a place in manhattan.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
i read over our exchange because it is as if there is a disconnect with something i have said. i think i know what it is- you say your chimney is lined and i keep talking about a metal liner. i would bet you do not know what your chimney is lined with (clay? or perhaps a metal insert; these are used to reline old chimneys and people on here have done that but i have never heard them say they hooked it to a stove) and you think i am being redundant by saying you will need a metal liner; two different things. here is the thing, i repeat, unlike some of the experts who will weigh in today, i have done this – just not as an adult who planned it and not in a brownstone and not recently – if a stove is put in a hearth, you will want a metal liner for a flue, one that will connect right to the stove and run right up and out the top of the chimney. it is not enough to fit the metal flue from the stove with the clay liner, say 24″ above the stove. at minimum, that would seem shoddy though i bet it has been done (the guy i helped do this was an engineer and had every ca lculation made and did it all by the book). my thought is that the clay flue and chimney will draw air around the metal flue, allowing the flame in the stove to falter, if this is not done correctly. if that guy i help that day was still around, i would run this by him.
i have not turned around and read anything to confirm what i am saying, i am gong with what i know or heard. we have a guy on here named urbandad, he likes to read and comment and if he can say i am wrong, we will have both learned something. there may not be a lot written about his as not a lot of people do it and there are other variables – which you may realize i cannot answer: can you fit the required size flue up the lined chimney? (if i were doing this in my house, that is the first question that has to be answered as it is a show stopper. i think 6″ comes off most stoves)
if you ask specific questions, you will drive those of us who don’t know away (if i cannot answer something, i won’t) and draw in those who might know better.
colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
Steve, I’ve tried to ask nicely. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but would appreciate if you’d let somebody else take the microphone, especially if they themselves have done what I am looking to do. Thanks.
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
What about installing a gas burner? The flue requirements are practically nonexistent. In fact I and others I know have installed these and actually CLOSED UP the flue. www.gascoals.net. But, to your point, I have a Vermont Castings stove vented into a flue and there have never been any issues. Smoke rises. You just want to do all you can to seal the connection point properly.
colonialrevival | 4 years and 2 months ago
Dave, thanks for your reply! What’s the difference in flue diameter between the stove and your chimney lining?
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
i will chime back in because i too have looked into “direct vent” gas stoves and stopped when i got to the codes. in some jurisdictions, unvented stoves can be legally installed. Not in NYC, not legally. i thought about this and then realized it was not worth breaking the NYC law which requires a direct vent. these gas stove are often not vented out the top, like the wood burner, but out the back and can pass through a wall. the connection to the stove is about 4″ (i shopped and looked at them, in person) but the flue generally has insulation around making it closer to a chimney lining. follow the code with gas.
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
colonialrevival I have no idea and I’m not at that house now to check. I’ll try to get back to you when I’m there. It is a completely newly constructed chimney though. Did you ask any of these questions of the people who did your inspections and certified the flue safe?? They’d know about the draw issues.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
op, you cannot make assumptions about your flue on here. now you are hearing it from dibs and i said it earlier. and i am not a fireplace installer. how did i know to question that?
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
Googling about installing a wood stove seems to indicate it can be installed into an existing flue. You could also call the manufacturer of your stove and ask them. What you can’t do is install a wood burning stove into a flue that was costructed for a gas unit. Call Vermont Castings or any of the manufacturers. I’m sure they will answer your questions.