Wood burning stove inside historic fireplace?
Has anyone around here done this? Our fireplace is wonderful but needs work to bring it back to safe, functioning condition — notably a rebuild of the firebox (with firebrick), parging of smoke chamber, and damper installation. The high price tag of this has us looking at our options, especially since despite all of this, our flue is in tremendous shape despite its age.
The efficiency of a wood burning stove, as well as the cleanliness and the self-contained burn has us considering getting one to insert within our oversized firebox, hooking it up to the flue and calling it a day. Has anyone else done this?
colonialrevival
in General Discussion 4 years and 2 months ago
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60 replies
stevecym | 4 years and 2 months ago
Shopping around is often the mistake a homeowner makes. If you call three contractors who have been doing something for 25 years and they say one thing and offer a high price, that is where the job should be. If someone shops enough and learns a little and can push the wrong bottom feeding contractor (as i tried asking if the stove flue can be stuck 3′ up the existing flue), they will manipulate the contractor into doing something that should not be done and that contractor will not convey the risks, if he even knows them. Contractors who fall into this should not be doing the specialty they are doing. They are handymen or opportunists.
I have noticed that people on here assume that the shoddy work was always out there and this is the way it is and has been and we have to accept it. There was a time that you called a contractor who told you what had to be done and he was correct. We are not that removed from that. If people learn how to avoid the bottom feeders, they will have less trouble.
I know, the temptation of a low price or saving money is attractive . But with this and many other things, things we might consider luxuries, if the homeowner cannot do them correctly and safely, they should not be doing them at all.
I keep saying this here, i worked in lower management for a professional property management firm and for commercial buildings in nyc. We did not make the mistakes that i read about here and when i read what you said, i realize why we did not make those mistakes. If you shop around for something, that is the mistake.
Raise the bar urbandad. It will be good for everyone, the homeowners, the contractors, the kid walking down the street, the city.
hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago
Ok ok, I didn’t really read the entire thread, I just quickly posted my thoughts on the topic, not thinking it would offend anyone, so sorry about that. At any rate I wasn’t recommending using a 2 bit contractor to install without a liner, I was just sharing that I’ve seen it done.
In fact I said that I would not do this and in fact I went to considerable trouble to properly line my flue. My point was that if the OP shops it around s/he may find someone to do it without a liner, but this should not be done.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
urbandad: it would have been ok to say what you did about venting that in an unlined flue before i made all of those calls because no one on here, including myself, really knew for certain what they proper, professional way to do this was. so i drove it to the end zone and called all of those people and got the answers. i even asked can this be vented in a flue without its own lining from the stove or in your case insert. now you come on and say you bet there contractors who would do this. i bet there are as well. i am sitting in my house with has all sorts of things that are not correct in it – but i do not do that kind of thing in my customers houses (my wife says it is the cobbler’s children with no shoes).
this is what is wrong with making a suggestion like you just did, especially with something that a minimally experienced person might conclude can be dangerous and to an audience that may not realize the danger. it makes people think that it is ok to shop around for shoddy contractors who do not give a toss about the homeowners safety and who won’ t be there in two years if something goes wrong. it also drives legitimate contractors from the business because as more of these – i don’t know what to call them (dirt bags? i worked for a man once who took advantage of people and there was no limit to who he would do shoddy work for; we need to make it hard for them to exist) – enter the field and take money from people, it makes it harder for people who want to do it the right way to compete. and when you come on here and say something for the sake of saying it, without really thinking about whether it is ok or complies with an accepted industry standard, it means that legitimate contractors who want to do this the right way have to fight back against your “let’s lower the bar” mentality. it makes it harder for an honest person with integrity to sell the job.
if you want to comment to what i said, why don’t you pick up where i left off: “if an engineer would approve it they would consider it” and call an engineer and push it around that way. and then, if the engineer says it is ok, say so.
hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago
@steve, when I said insert, I meant a fireplace insert rather than a liner. I think that would be more typical than a freestanding stove for a fireplace flue, but it’s possible a freestanding stove could be used, and it’s not an important distinction here.
All I was saying is I’ve seen folks vent a wood burning appliance into a tile lined flue, and I bet there’s contractors who would install it that way, but I would not do it in a brownstone. In a 1 story house where the chimney could be more easily inspected and didn’t pass through many occupied spaces I’d be more likely to consider this, but in that case the liner installation would be pretty easy anyway.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
@chris: how much more can someone say something to this?
i want to know what he is implying. after i did all that leg work to get the best and safest practice i want to know if he is going to post some short cut.
lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 2 months ago
54 Responses and counting…love to see all the activity!!
lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 2 months ago
54 Responses and counting…love to see all the activity!!
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
urbandad, after i did all that research here and relayed how the pros do it, can i ask what do you mean by “inserts installed in a tile lined flue”? can you clarify? how is it different that what the people i spoke to said?
hkapstein | 4 years and 2 months ago
I’ve seen inserts installed into a tile lined flue. I don’t think I’d do it though. But if you call enough people, I’m sure you’ll find someone who would do it.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
something about it then settling more tar on the lining if it is not run through a flue pipe. i read something about that and the guy i called said that. the flue opening into the larger chimeny and possibly the draw you are referencing might cause that issue. beyond my comprehension.
count on you.
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
As I read the installation instructions on Vermont Castings website, it may have an effect on the draw so that does have “to do with the ventilation of the stove.”
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
so dibs. i called back Maggie at NY Chimney Repair at 1-516-279-1513. i told her the scenario and asked her about installing a “wood stove in an existing fire place with a perfectly good terra cotta lining”. i asked if i could post her company’s name on line (again) and quote her and this is what she said:
“if it is a perfect liner and an engineer signed off on it”
So i asked “so you would do it?” She said “we would consider it, but i doubt an engineer will sign off on it.”
i asked, “why would an engineer not want to sign off on it” and she replied “because it is not the right way to do it.”
somewhere in there i asked about insurance and she said “it has to do with the ventilation of the stove”.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
DIBS, I think the entire doubt about this for the OP is the “why” companies that retrofit stoves into preexisting fire places with good liners do it this way. it is an added cost. it might be the responsibility; they don’t want it. three companies have said if they do it, they run a flue from the stove up the chimney out out the top. I pushed them. when questioned, they were firm on that (all three told me “if we do it, that is the only way”; one said, “unless you have a stainless liner to attach to”). the man i did it with had a 15 year old chimney and did it – years before this lining thing was talked about. what you are reading here is probably the “best practice”. i cannot debate that as it comes from paid pros. you know, you always do your research and go with the smart money; i called the smart money. maybe they are using this as an excuse to sell a little more work and make a little more money? perhaps. i did mention somewhere else t hat i get a sense insurance companies are behind this; maybe the insurance companies for the stove installers are telling them to to it this way?
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
And chimeny fires are caused by issues within the chimney (typically buildups) , not the firebox. And the OP has stated that their chimney has been determined to be in good shape.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
DIBS: sorry, i was not clear. they were talking about a chimney fire. i know the thought is that the heat and flame from a chimney fire would rise but that is what they said.
i think a lot of the worry around this concerns a chimney fire.
to my point, if anyone says anything wrong, dibs is right there.
daveinbedstuy | 4 years and 2 months ago
” the force of a fire can push that insulation out of the joint between the flue and say a terra cotta liner” Nonsense. A fire is contained inside a cast iron wood stove. You don’t see or experience any “force” in the metal exhaust flue coming out of a wood stove.
JohnHancock | 4 years and 2 months ago
@handy….lol!
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 2 months ago
so back to the flue issue. the third person i spoke to the other day said something like this to me as to why someone does not want to push a stove flue just 3′ up a chimney (with a good lining) and push some insulating material around it: he said they are afraid the force of a fire can push that insulation out of the joint between the flue and say a terra cotta liner and land in the living space” since this person was not a paid installer i did not spend to much time questioning him. i kind of got my answer and ran.
I called this person was he was a “techinal editor” or “research director” for Mother Earth News magazine from circa 1978 to 1992, the period when people really began looking into alternative fuels and ways of heating. he heats with wood and he did also tell me that he had to have a metal insert put in his chimney for other reasons.
btw op, i made these calls the other day because i was pissed. all of us guys know someone who knows something. if the answers are not appearing here and i know someone, i will make a call.
cammymcfadden | 4 years and 2 months ago
@colonialrevival (a very fitting name actually), the whole point of a forum is to foster discussion. It’s a community — not a search engine where you can expect a response based on the parameters you set – and then get dismissive (and ageist) when you don’t get your preferred answer in your preferred format. Speaking of search engines, you might want to use one – as this very question has been addressed many times (my fellow Brownstoners are too polite to mention this).
I do hope you stay and learn a few things (not just about flues and firebrick). And if not, don’t let the Eastlake double-entry doors hit you in the vestibule on your way out.