Whole House Battery Solutions: New NYS Guidelines
Thanks for the input, and thanks for moving the conversation back to batteries.
We’ve had the whole solar installation discussion here many times going back a dozen years (sometime about 7 or 8 years ago the format of this board changed and many posts related to solar were lost). The topic always devolves into 1) how long one amortizes hardware costs 2) whether one thinks subsidies and no cost loans are a good idea 3) The hidden or “opportunity costs” associated with such large investment.
I don’t want to have that discussion again on this thread, but hey it’s not my board.
Back to he battery thing…
I have a friend who, about 15 years ago, had a 5 guest-house resort down in Mahahual Mexico. It was (but sadly no longer is) in the middle of nowhere, right on a beautiful beach.
He ran the whole “resort” off of power generated from solar but stored in batteries.
He took me up to the “attic” of the main house, and he about 100 or 150, 40amp car batteries up there storing energy and running all 5 buildings — perhaps 50-75kWh.
Thats what Im moving towards here in Brooklyn but with more efficient batteries.
jjq
in General Discussion 4 years and 4 months ago
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jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
I see the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) has published a new Energy Storage guidebook as of December 2020.
https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/-/media/Files/Programs/clean-energy-siting/battery-storage-guidebook.pdf
The book (pdf) outlines a “projected” path forward for permitting lithium-ion and older battery technologies, although no state or city law has been updated to accommodate early adapters.
I’m wondering if anyone on this board has successfully fought through the local red tape and installed a grid connected 20-40 kWatt lithium battery storage system in NYC….?
The practical application is “rate shifting” whole house energy costs to about 1.55¢ a kWh under ConEd’s “Time of Use” billing option.
The previous years stumbling block was 1) fire department regulation around the battery storage solution and 2) finding a UL1741 listed inverter.
By my first read of the above doc, the FD regs seem to have been sorted, and I see several UL listed inverters for general sale now.
Any comments? Thnx.
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
I’m a surprised more people aren’t interested in this…
Imagine running your whole house electric for 25¢ per day.
And if you own heat pumps…. perhaps another 50-75¢ for heating and cooling.
That’s what we’re talking about once the legislation gets sorted out.
The on-the-shelf technology is here to do this TODAY.
hkapstein | 4 years and 5 months ago
It sounds interesting, can you explain the economics? Will 40kw run an average home for a day? What do you think is the breakeven on installation?
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Sorry just seeing this…
Its a fun exercise to add up all the items that use electricity in your home to see how your electric usage breaks out.
Mine looks like this:
Basically my house uses about 15-16 kWh/day on week days, and perhaps 50% more on the weekend.
Thats because we use the Washing Machine and Clothes Dryer on the weekend only.
The Washing machine and Clothes Dryer are energy hogs (2-4kWh/per use/per machine) and increase our AVERAGE daily consumption a lot.
Our DAILY consumption (16 kWh/day) looks like this:
7kWh Fridge
2kWh Lights (10 60W bulbs, 3 hours per day)
2kWh Wine Fridge
1kWh Coffee Maker and Toaster
1kWh Dish Washer
1kWh LED TVs, Rokus, Telephones, Alexas (in each of 4 rooms)
1kWh Computers, iPad, Cell Phones and associated chargers (in each of 2 rooms)
1kWh Phantom Power (50 devices drawing 1-4W/hr)
So to make the math easy lets just say we use 20kWh/day.
So on average (not including Heatpump) we use:
Usage: 20kWh/day * 31 days/month = 620kWh/Mnth
Cost= 600kWh * 28.18 = $174/Month
But let’s concentrate on the 20kWh/day.
TODAY (1/12/21) a DIYer could install aprox $10K worth of equipment (including $3-4k for electrician) to “time-shift” 20kWh of his/her energy costs to 12am-8am “Time of Use” rates, and amortize equipment costs over, say, 10 years… That’s $1,000/year (really a LOT LESS—perhaps 1/2 that cost— because battery technology is only rated at 10 years usage at 70% end of use)…
So conservatively we’re at $45-90/month for equipment amortization PLUS aprox $30/month ConEd “Time of Use” metering fees PLUS negligible electric usage costs.
So all in your at $75-120/month.
Not quite a game-changer unless you add in HVAC savings, shifting Heat Pump (or all electric) electricity fees from 30¢/kWh to 1.5¢/kWh…. But that’s another calculation, your “mileage” may vary….. wink 😉
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Just to add a word or two on HVAC savings…
I currently have a SINGLE Mitsubishi h2i hyper heat system which blows aprox 60K BTU heat per hour.
The system is zoned 24-24-12, which heat all the downstairs rooms (24-24) and only upstairs master bedroom (12.)
HVAC guys will notice I’m only using the heat pump for three zones, split over two floors in a poorly insulated two story brownstone. I plan to install another 60K unit for the other areas in the property which are currently heated with electric baseboard but rarely used in winter months… yes those areas (studio, library, office and guest bedroom) are Arctic Cold when temps drop below 30F.
When the heat pump is in use—it’s on 12-14hrs/day, and because it’s an inverter model, it uses aprox 1/2 it’s RATED power consumption, or about 2.5kW per hour.. That’s about 30-35kWh per day… which translates to aprox $10.00 per day at 30 cents kWh.
Truth is, the HVAC portion of my ConEd bill, as best as I can figure, rarely is above $250 in the month so I use the heat pump.
Imagine “rate-shifting” that $10/day electricity fee to 45 cents a day with the use of a “whole house battery.”
That’s a game changer for me.
A $1,800.00 savings per year on 6 months of HVAC (not including equipment amortization which obviously drops the yearly savings) as soon as the city works out the permitting process.
I Feel i could get my insurance guy to go along with a DIY installation I’d do the install today, but it looks like it will take another year or som to work out the permitting process.
hkapstein | 4 years and 5 months ago
Can you provide a case where someone actually did this and it worked in or out of the city?
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
That was the question I posed in my ORIGINAL post.
Like so many new ideas— It’s not the technology, but the vested interests/red tape holding back implementation.
Lurker | 4 years and 5 months ago
just get solar panels–credits and rebates pay 70-80% of cost right now, reduce rates to near-zero, and you don’t have a battery system that may only last 10 years anyway.
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Commercial Install costs for grid-supplied battery (no rebate, non-branded, ie: not tesla) OR solar (after rebates) is about the same from what I can see. Federal Solar rebates expire this year, and NY State rebates are down to $5k.
All things being considered, for a 20kW system, Id rather just hang three 20×11” boxes on the wall in my basement, than mount twenty 65×30” panels on my roof.
There’s all the other solar drawbacks in NYS as well…. but I don’t want to have that conversation again…. If solar works for you, GREAT.
hkapstein | 4 years and 5 months ago
Are the batteries seamless? I mean what happens when an AC compressor comes on or and how do you control when the batteries are charging vs discharging?
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Picture a box that sits on the wall in your basement just beyond ConEds power drop.
That box connects 1) Power from ConEd 2) Battery Bank 3) Solar Panels 4) Breaker Box.
Everything, ie: ALL house wiring beyond the existing breaker box #4 above does NOT change.
Now, eliminate #3 above Solar panels, we don’t need that in NYC.
So we are left with a box which can switch between Power Grid, Batteries, and Breaker Box.
That’s BOX is called an INVERTER.
The computer program in the inverter can be set up as follows:
1) From 12midnight to 6am draw power from grid and charge my batteries
— “Time of use” rate, off peak 1.5 cents kWh
2) From 6am to 12midnight STOP drawing power from the grid
— Avoid standard and peak power rate 30 cents kWh
3) From 6am to 12midnight power my breaker box from batteries
4) If at any time the battery can’t handle the load, switch back to grid
It’s that easy.
christinamove | 4 years and 5 months ago
I am very interested in this. I’ve looked into solar. Right now that’s a hard pass for us. I’m very frustrated with how the rebate, tax offset and net metering requirements vis a vis. the fact that ConEdison is not contributing more to what is essentially us expanding their grid on our property. Other than the “good feels of going solar” it doesn’t start making financial sense (in our case) for decades. I feel like it’s their responsibility to pay (for the grid to expand on private rooftops. And, I wish Cuomo would use more leverage to insist on it (and push for zero emission power and flex grids in NY) . But, I know that will never happen. We’ll just keep having our ritual summer blackouts and light wrist slapping.
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
You have come to the same conclusion I have. The financial investment ConED needs to make to comply with the Sate’s “Green power Mandate” is simply being offloaded on to the building owner via the solar hardware costs.
Now the whole Green thing is important, but it needs to make financial sense also.
As I point out above, a DIYer can do a 20kWh system TODAY for about $5k using repurposed Tesla batteries.
A closer read of the document I mention in the OP does specify that repurposed batteries are NOT automatically rejected in the permitting process… so we are a lot closer today than we were last year when there’s simply was no guidebooks on this.
christinamove | 4 years and 5 months ago
Please. Please post again if you get anywhere on this. I’m very interested in that. Eventually, I need to get an “owner’s meter” installed in our two family when/if we ever decide to bounce for any length of time. That is the type of capital investment I would look into doing when that happens.
christinamove | 4 years and 5 months ago
A little cursory search I came across this; https://www.amny.com/news/lithium-battery-buildings-1-36172686/ Which potentially you can install a powerwall/battery system outside now under current local regulations, perhaps? Which, potentially is possible for me. I’d have to worry a little about theft, though unlikely I think.
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Read the doc in the Original Post.. those are the developing guidelines for NYC. Two years ago when I started my journey on this, there was nothing.. now we have a plan with Fire Dpt and DOB buy-in.
It will take a little work for a DIYer (like myself) to navigate through the permitting process over the next 12-18 months.
I really need an electrician to help with permitting and DOB contact.. but have not found one yet.
Lurker | 4 years and 5 months ago
I suspect your numbers for solar may not be complete? If you haven’t already get a bid from a solar company like Brooklyn solar works–our proposed system will pay itself off in 5 years and we’ll have net zero costs for power for the foreseeable future. A solar system will last at least 20 years and more like 30, and comes with a 20 year warranty plus warrantees for power production. The federal tax rebate was just re-upped in the new budget and is sizable–26% of cost—and you can be sure under new admin it will be a priority. Plus there’s state credits, NYSERDA rebates, and historic zone bumps and city real estate tax credits for 4 years. You get those precisely because it’s solar.
Batteries have a much shorter lifespan. You’ve clearly done your math but a Tesla battery wall has a 10 year lifespan and only is warrantied to put out 70% of charge by 10 years. I don’t see how that would compare at all with a solar system. Yes you have install costs and roofing to think about but I just don’t see how a system that degrades so quickly and has a short life span yet costs a lot is a good option.
jjq | 4 years and 5 months ago
Lurker—I suspect that if we both had to comment on the following RECENT NYC solar installation over at the DOB database, we would both “see” the costs and benefits from different financial perspectives:
I’m happy to have that discussion, perhaps on a different thread.
What I am interested in this thread is putting forward the idea that the whole “Solar vs/plus Battery” thing has changed dramatically as of December 2020 when NY State published guidelines (model law, model permit, checklist) for ESS installations.
The above, combined with the following— changes the energy landscape in NYC:
The kWh cost of battery ESS (specifically LiFePo4) is dropping faster than the temperature during a polar vortex.
Take a look at the following, with the understanding that I could provide a dozen other non-Tesla battery providers (not all Chinese) doing the same thing with storage albeit a whole lot cheaper than Tesla:
https://www.amazo n.com/BESTSUN-Renewable-Storage-Powerwall-Inverter/dp/B07ZDD9929?th=1
Obviously, in NYC we have the whole permitting & electrician thing to deal with.. but from my perspective, an “appliance” like energy-saving installation (read: no architect or engineer involved) is the way forward.
christinamove | 4 years and 5 months ago
@ Lurker we use such a small amount of electricity the numbers just don’t add up the same for us as other people for solar installation. A power wall probably doesn’t either, until prices come down.
I fundamentally believe the incentives need to be greater if we are building out the grid for ConEd on our rooftops*. Which is essentially how this is all structured now with regulations. I’d be making a capital investment into their infrastructure , the costs for which are not being properly offset, imho. If they want to give me ConEd stock, then sure I’ll undergo and pay for a massive construction project on our 100+ year old roof. Then, maintain it. Otherwise, I’m not helping ConEd out.
* I feel like Cuomo and de Blasio are dinosaurs when it comes to setting policy for climate change. I hope we get a new vision of leadership and policy in the coming years.