What's Between Brownstone top floor Ceiling and Roof?

I have a very drafty ceiling on the top floor of a 100 year old brownstone. Cooling the room is a nightmare. There are 11″ between the bottom of this ceiling and the top of the flat rubber roof above. Can anyone lend any insight as to what’s likely between this ceiling and the roof? Ancient insulation? Crawl space?

Here are pictures: http://imgur.com/a/YsdBasf

I’m thinking about using wood putty and caulking to seal the gaps between many of the ceiling boards to reduce the draftiness and improve heating/cooling.

emily.abruzzo

in General Discussion 4 years and 9 months ago

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emily.abruzzo | 4 years and 8 months ago

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It’s not actually that bad since I applied the caulking. That’s not what I’m seeing restorationcontractor- this was a design choice as far as I can tell. The ceiling in the opposite room is the same height as the ceiling boards- not the joists- they drop below that same level. There is roughly a foot between these ceilings and the roof- and after more poking around ,there is some type of crummy insulation in that space. The issue is lack of quality and completeness and that the spaces between the boards get drafty as heck. But sealing off the space for air flow has reduced the problem immensely.

If I did all you’ve suggested, the ceiling would be very low.

But on your roofing point- it is already sealed with a silver paint- is that different from what you have in mind?

emily.abruzzo | 4 years and 8 months ago

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It’s not actually that bad since I applied the caulking. That’s not what I’m seeing restorationcontractor- this was a design choice as far as I can tell. The ceiling in the opposite room is the same height as the ceiling boards- not the joists- they drop below that same level. There is roughly a foot between these ceilings and the roof- and after more poking around ,there is some type of crummy insulation in that space. The issue is lack of quality and completeness and that the spaces between the boards get drafty as heck. But sealing off the space for air flow has reduced the problem immensely.

If I did all you’ve suggested, the ceiling would be very low.

But on your roofing point- it is already sealed with a silver paint- is that different from what you have in mind?

restorationcontractor | 4 years and 8 months ago

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Wow, that place has to be an oven in the summer! What you are seeing is the underside of your roof sheathing, with the base roofing being seen in the gaps between the boards. Someone removed the plaster ceiling.
I would do closed cell spray foam, sheetrock ceiling below for fireproofing, then add decorative beams and rough sawn sheathing below if you want to keep the look.
Also consider a reflective coating on your existing roofing if needed.

emily.abruzzo | 4 years and 8 months ago

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I have sealed most of gaps between the ceiling boards with acrylic caulk at this point and it has made a very noticeable difference. Since getting up on the ladder and in all the corners, I’ve noticed a few bigger gaps that I’m going to just cover with some scrap wood and foam board behind. Spray foam was not worth the bother because this is a predominantly interior space and that stuff turned out to be a mess waiting to happen for this application. About $120 total in caulk and backing rod, and some unnecessary foam that’ll sit in the basement.

Appreciate all the more thorough ideas, but insulating as suggested would require opening up space and doing some investigating just to get started, and then contracting out the work which exceeds my interest at this point. On the list if we ever go through with a gut renovation and add a level to the house.

A drop ceiling with insulation between the joists and drywall covering them was never in the cards bc I don’t want to shorten the room that much.

To me, the second most appealing option to what I’ve done was in stalling drywall (or interior wall grade insulating foam like thermax, were it available in NYC) directly between the joists, so the ceiling would functionally remain the same height. But I decided to keep it simple and stick with caulking. We’ll see how it holds up through the winter and next summer as temps change.

emily.abruzzo | 4 years and 8 months ago

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I have sealed most of gaps between the ceiling boards with acrylic caulk at this point and it has made a very noticeable difference. Since getting up on the ladder and in all the corners, I’ve noticed a few bigger gaps that I’m going to just cover with some scrap wood and foam board behind. Spray foam was not worth the bother because this is a predominantly interior space and that stuff turned out to be a mess waiting to happen for this application. About $120 total in caulk and backing rod, and some unnecessary foam that’ll sit in the basement.

Appreciate all the more thorough ideas, but insulating as suggested would require opening up space and doing some investigating just to get started, and then contracting out the work which exceeds my interest at this point. On the list if we ever go through with a gut renovation and add a level to the house.

A drop ceiling with insulation between the joists and drywall covering them was never in the cards bc I don’t want to shorten the room that much.

To me, the second most appealing option to what I’ve done was in stalling drywall (or interior wall grade insulating foam like thermax, were it available in NYC) directly between the joists, so the ceiling would functionally remain the same height. But I decided to keep it simple and stick with caulking. We’ll see how it holds up through the winter and next summer as temps change.

2345bcde | 4 years and 8 months ago

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It’s my understanding that if you use close cell spray insulation it can be sprayed directly onto the underside of the roof without fear of condensation.

stevecym | 4 years and 8 months ago

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i have been watching this to see what others say, whenever we did ceilings in the past, we never put insulation and in kitchens or humid areas we always put a sheet of plastic to keep moisture from setting in the ceiling. i was never sure why we did not insulate; it was we were told and what we did.

when my father decided to insulate the eaves in the house i grew up in, he did not insulated the joists facing the roof, but between the floor joists between the first floor and second floor, leaving the attic uninsulated.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 4 years and 8 months ago

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Cate: I hope your caution was about applying insulation DIRECTLY to the underside of the roof , without an air space or vents. In such a situation condensation could be a major problem. However, in most cases, albeit not the OP’s situation, insulation is blown into the cockloft and vents are installed in the roof to deal with condensation. This is a common practice in old row houses. I had it done >40 years ago It reduces my heating cost, made my house more comfortable, and had not caused ANY problems.

JohnHancock | 4 years and 8 months ago

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You need vents in the roof to prevent condensation and mold I think

cate | 4 years and 8 months ago

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Rick, that sounds like a great solution.

Rick | 4 years and 8 months ago

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I have a friend who bought a brownstone who had the same problem. He ended up having a company use spray foam insulation between the rafters and sheetrock over it. This worked out well in that he kept the added height of the top floor. Ceiling fans were added to move air in Summer and Winter .

cate | 4 years and 8 months ago

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Whatever you do, please be cautious about insulating the roof. I know someone who did this and has major structural problems with the roof and rear gutter now that are going to cost tens of thousands to fix. A roofer said to me once that adding insulation on the roof is never a good idea. Maybe the issue is that insulation was added on top of an already existing roof layer.

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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Depending on the answers I would do 2 layers.
1. Rigid insulation cut to fit tight between existing narrow beams attached to the boards.
2. 1/4 drywall under insulation attached to existing beams ( if the bottoms of the beams are level). If beams are not level, it is easy to attach alternatives to wood boards. You do not need the same count of the beams, just enough to attach 8′ drywall sheets.
You could even attach 2X4 on the seams 90 degrees to existing beams under the drywall if you like “beamed” look. Paint everything.

The money lost on heating and cooling in existing situation more then justify an expense for this job. Any good handyman would be able to do this in less then a week. The longest would be to wait when drywall seams skim coating dries. The dirtiest will be sanding , you will have to cover your furniture.

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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Depending on the answers I would do 2 layers.
1. Rigid insulation cut to fit tight between existing narrow beams attached to the boards.
2. 1/4 drywall under insulation attached to existing beams ( if the bottoms of the beams are level). If beams are not level, it is easy to attach alternatives to wood boards. You do not need the same count of the beams, just enough to attach 8′ drywall sheets.
You could even attach 2X4 on the seams 90 degrees to existing beams under the drywall if you like “beamed” look. Paint everything.

The money lost on heating and cooling in existing situation more then justify an expense for this job. Any good handyman would be able to do this in less then a week. The longest would be to wait when drywall seams skim coating dries. The dirtiest will be sanding , you will have to cover your furniture.

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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And who pays for the heat and cooling?

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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And who pays for the heat and cooling?

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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How high is you ceiling?

lucie | 4 years and 8 months ago

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How high is you ceiling?

catboot | 4 years and 9 months ago

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Looks like the crawl space/cock loft was removed at some point. No wonder it’s drafty, as these boards were never meant to be exposed. As built, the house would likely have had a plaster and lath ceiling a few feet below. My guess is what we are seeing is really the underside of the roof.