The real deal on Skim Coating
brokelin just said it. by the time you cover that with drywall and tape it , you are not really saving any work over fixing that old plaster. the issue is, that contractor probably wants to use his generalist help to do this and they probably do not have the skillset. this is all easy stuff. no excuses. but he knows they will move too slow at it because they do not do enough for him to make any money at it. that is the issue.
andriywww1990
in General Discussion 3 years and 3 months ago
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j.e.c2769 | 3 years and 3 months ago
When our contractor initially quoted us for plaster and paint it said “no skimming.” We asked our architect about this and he basically said it’s more of a luxury final step to the paint job if you want it to look absolutely perfect. Now, we do not particular like the perfection so commonly seen in cookie cutter suburban houses, or over the top instragramish places that look like a boutique hotel. In many ways, we’re ok with an old house as we’re keeping some molding, etc. So, we opted not to do skimming. But now the contractor has said that without skimming it’ll look really bad and wants to nearly double the price to do it, or has offered to covers the walls with 5/8 inch drywall. Covering the walls with 5/8 inch drywall is definitely something we’re going to agree to for many reasons.
This job is for a partial gut renovation, new ceilings + 80% old plaster wall, 20% new wall. The plaster parts are partially dug out for new electric, various holes, etc but the foundation is still there. Can it be done well without skimming? Or, is this necessary? Appreciate it.
cate | 3 years and 3 months ago
I’m a little confused by the question. If the house had plaster in good condition before the electrical upgrade, then the contractor (or sub, such as a plaster expert) should patch the holes and make them not noticeable by final smoothing with a wet sponge. (And/or perhaps finishing to match the existing texture of the wall., although if it’s pretty close the paint will help hide differences.) If some of the ceilings are new, then the contractor/sub/plaster expert should do the same final step to blend the new drywall with the old plaster and hide the seams. End of story. I would go with what your architect is saying (assuming they are experienced) and not worry too much about it.) You can also prime a wall and see how it looks to you in the daylight. (BTW if the edges are a little crumbly, the solution is caulk between the plaster and the baseboards/molding, not skim coating.) If, on the other hand, the plaster was in rough condition — say, fine hairline cracks and alligatoring all over the place, etc., which can be caused by too rapid drying and temperature changes, among other things — in the first place, then, assuming the plaster is sound and firmly attached the substrate, the easiest and best approach would be to skim coat this. There are many different methods for skim coating. The one I have found gives the best results is to put on a very fine layer of pink Plaster-Weld (a glue, basically), then add fine fiberglass mesh (it comes in rolls and sticks to the Plaster-Weld, then let it all dry very thoroughly, then skim with a fine layer of compound. Plaster experts may use more than one coat. I find it is not required as long as the mesh is hidden. The mesh prevents stress cracks from returning. You need someone who knows what they are doing because much can go wrong in the application of the skimming. Ideally, a plaster expert (who will also have specialized equipment) not a drywall person. In any case, never cover plaster with drywall (except perhaps in a closet full of crumbling lead paint and maybe not even then). It will ruin the walls and the look of the house, and stick out over the moldings and baseboards in the wrong way. Contractors love to put up drywall. It’s a money maker for them. Also, the too-smooth look you see in new houses is drywall, not plaster.
j.e.c2769 | 3 years and 3 months ago
Wow. Thanks a lot for this! Super helpful, and makes me feel more confident in standing our ground against drywalling over the plaster. What I mean about the existing plaster walls is that they certainly need work, but we like the look and feel of plaster, especially the acoustic properties that it brings to a room, the sound insulation, etc. We do not want to lose this and replace with drywall. So it sounds like you’re saying the are options and the “skim coating” is somewhat of a vague term, but the reality is more like “do a good job and make it look nice.” If they’re charging $30,500 for plaster and paint on total of 2 floors, I think they have an obligation to make do a professional job. But for “skim coating” they want an additional 15k. That’s the debate we’re in. [IMG-1412](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:LemM:img1412.jpg.jpg) [IMG-1438](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:pHR6:img1438.jpg.jpg) [IMG-1420](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:ieUX:img1420.jpg.jpg) [IMG-1422](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:EolD:img1422.jpg.jpg)
cate | 3 years and 3 months ago
Great! Going by the photos, the walls look fine. You would have to inspect in person in strong daylight to make sure the plaster is still soundly attached to the lathe and does not have cracks. If your architect is experienced and says it’s fine, I’d stick with that. Good luck.
cate | 3 years and 3 months ago
“Plaster” in the contract sounds like they mean fill the holes and, presumably, make them look nice. “Skim coating” means resurfacing the entirety of all the plaster surfaces. A wall, not a hole, and maybe all the walls and ceilings.
stevecym | 3 years and 3 months ago
I end up having to skim any patches I do on my own walls. But this will help: use 1/2″ nap rollers when priming and painting. 1/4″ is too smooth. 3/4 might be too much. It also will depend how the old walls were finished before and whatever yo do you want to carry uniformity across it.
brokelin | 3 years and 3 months ago
Yes, that last comment is very important, as paint on plaster will look different from paint on a drywall patch. Is you contractor referring to not skim coating the entirety of the walls, or not using sufficient compound to make the patches look as unnoticeable as possible?
Perhaps they are referring to the fact that the drywall patches (possibly even if skimmed) may still likely look slightly different once painted than the original plaster – (I’m looking at a drywalled wall where I can see that the paint looks smoother over the area that has been patched with joint compound right now), and are telling you that in order to get an entirely perfect-looking uniform paint job, the whole wall surface would need to be skimmed. This may be true, but if so, it may be that they are talking about how uniform the paint on the painted surface looks, not about seeing any imperfections in the walls themselves.
It all depends on how closely you will be looking at the walls, and how much you care that the paint look completely uniform – there are different levels of perfectioni sm out there. (Would I skim my current walls to make the paint look totally uniform – no! – the only reason I would skim them is because I hate the look of drywall, and I would hope I’d move back to an older building with my usual plaster if I have that kind of money.
Lurker | 3 years and 3 months ago
The other important thing to note about layering drywall over plaster is that means all of your existing door trim and baseboards and decorative ceiling molding no longer fit and so you also need to redo or transition those which is $$$. We had one room with layered drywall over plaster on both sides of the wall, so it’s 1 -1/8 thicker than a standard wall, which means pre-hung doors didn’t fit without a custom jamb, the baseboards needed to be removed and replaced yada yada.
cate | 3 years and 3 months ago
Re the nap on the paint rollers, it is true as Steve says that a thicker nap can help blur the differences between the two surfaces. However, imho, roller nap texture looks horrible and it’s hard to get rid of once it’s up. I’d test first by priming one of your walls and seeing what I think of the look. Regardless, I doubt I’d ask any painter to ever use anything other than a smooth nap roller, especially on plaster (not drywall).
stevecym | 3 years and 3 months ago
It’s not even that thicker nap will blur the differences. Today, most walls are painted with nothing less than 3/8″ nap and if you leave any of these lazy painters of today to their devices, they will go with heavy nap because it picks up and holds more paint. Heavy nap I would consider 3/4. They will use it if you let them.
Painters will resist using 1/4″ nap on plaster because it will leave voids where there are low spots in the wall or around repairs. You wont see these high and low spots until you run them with a 1/4″ nap roller. It means more work picking up more paint and going over it in 3 or 4 directions to fill the void.. on new drywall, 1/4″ nap is not so bad.
Part of the reason you have to use a roller with some nap on it when blending a repair has nothing to do with what we want today and all to do with what the painters did in the past. If it was a rental unit and someone was slapping paint on with 3/4 nap, it will be hard to blend the repair with 1/4 ” nap next to it.
I took a look at the walls here a little while ago. I do not think I skim coated them. I think what I did was sanded off some of the old paint after skim coating the repairs. I wanted 1/4″ nap and after making a pass with primer on a 1/4 nap roller, I realized it still would not blend against the old paint so went over it again with half inch nap. . In some places, on the staircase where it was hard to reach, i can see the areas where heavier nap had been used years ago, where i failed to take it down by sanding. The 1/2 makes a reasonable bridge but no, if that heavy nap where here in the living room, I would have sanded it off.
You need to have a good crew to either get them to sand off the walls to lower the old heavy paint (and they make sanders with dust collection just for this; this can be done fast) and to convince them that they are going to use a low nap roller. This goes against the work ethic of today.
colonialrevival | 3 years and 3 months ago
We had our whole house skimmed before paint and are glad we did. It makes the paint job look that much better.
brokelin | 3 years and 3 months ago
Yes, I’m not surprised that the skim coat makes the paint job look great.
I agree with Cate, too, that I hate the napped texture on walls. Currently living in newer construction with drywall for the first time in many decades, and I hate the way the paint on the drywalled walls looks. I’m used to old plaster with a smooth paint finish (even when the walls aren’t perfect.) I think the only way to make it look better would be to skim coat, but I’d rather move back to a place with plastered walls to avoid doing that (and everything else that 1970s construction needs.)
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 3 months ago
i have gone around and looked at the walls in my own house because i am the one that did them and i know where i was trying to achieve a better job (main floor) and where i did not care. i was in a rush when i did it (like you might have budgetary concerns; we had to move in and i was working alone). There are spots i did not skim nor sand at all (under the windows around where the radiators are and someone had once used a 3/4″ nap roller) and other spots i skimmed completely. this is my take: if you want the walls perfactly uniform and smooth, the way cate and colonial and brokelin are talking about, you have no choice but to skim coat. if you do not skim coat and use a low nap roller, old imperfections will jump out at you (especially in an open and airy main floor with a lot of light and not a lot of clutter) unless you sand and keep in mind, you will not sand off all of the texture from a 3/4″ nap roller, if that is what had been used there (an experienced painter should be able to look at the walls and tell you if the previous nap had been 1/4″, 1/2″ or 3/ 4″; if they cannot tell, they are not a painter and should be shown to the door; the GC should know this as well).
the sanding i talk about, which someone, maybe brokelin, said is difficult to do, will only do so much (it will remove lint from rollers and old bits of spackle and the high spots from the 3/4″ nap roller; if they press too hard on the sander and the old latex paint was applied thick, it will peel it off or take it out in little chunks and then that wound has to be filled with spackle and sanded). the painters will resist doing this because it is an added step and because modern “plastic” paint does not sand, it moves around and clogs the paper or sanding screen (if I were to sand my living room, i would have 10 sheets of 120 grit paper here; no heavier or if i had to go heavier, i would go back over it with 120). it can be done and it can be done very fast if the workers are prepared and know what they are doing (most painters today do not want to sand anything and i have had them walk off jobs because they will not take the time to prep the job; you are better off without those people).
if skimming is out of the budget and you decide to sand off the old walls a little and go over them with a 3/8″ nap roller, you will end up with a texture like a SMOOTH orange. it is not the worst thing. the spots i did not touch in this house (the 3/4 nap), they look like a ROUGH orange. with the low nap, 3/8″, you have to get kind of close to spot it. with the 3/4, you can see it from 6 or so feet away. if you have any of that, you have to do something to it . if what i have under my windows was in the middle of the wall, everyone would see it when they walk in.
we are getting down to details here that only experienced people can converse about. A highly experienced painting contractor should be able to explain all of this to you and advise you as to what they can achieve (per room because they cannot price it otherwise; for each room, it is prime and paint or sand/prime/paint or skim/prime/paint; no do a little more here and a little less there in each room like i had the luxury of doing here). if the GC or architect has not done a lot of restoration work, they may not be the person to have this conversation with. the painter, if that person has not been running a company, may not be that person either because they may not be experienced enough to have this conversation (do not let a language barrier fool you; if they have been doing this a long time and are experienced, they can converse. to protect yourself, any failure to converse should be viewed as lack of experience doing the work; if they know how to do this, they can run their hand over spots and say “i can smooth this by sanding” or “no i cannot smooth it, we have to skim”; they might tell you it has to be skimmed anyway because they do not want to sand).
when we step out of “textbook” jobs (new construction, perfectly new smooth walls) and move into restoration, it requires versatility. if the team has not done something, it is up to the supervisor to direct them and SHOW them what needs to be achieved and then watch them for a little while to be sure they are doing it (the sanding; they hate it) and then approve that step before they begin priming (and make sure they dust the walls off before they prime; a sanding with dust collection will help but everything has to be clean; some of these people will roll over dust if you let them).
if you are going to spend all of that money doing the skim coating, you are going to have to watch the painters. even if you give them a 1/4″ nap roller to keep it smooth, they may pull a 3/8″ nap out of their bag when you are not looking (i have caught people doing this; if i had a crew there, especially an unknown crew, i would be walking around looking at everything they bring on the job site; hope that your contractor works with a crew he knows or he has good control over; some painting companies hire people off the street and those people do not give a toss). and i tell you this from experience: it is still possible to screw up a perfectly flat new plaster wall with a 1/4″ nap roller. 1/4″ nap rollers hold so little paint and fail to fill the low spots on the first pass, that inexperienced people press harder on them, forcing some paint out the edges and leaving lines. in the late 1970’s i screwed up perfect, smooth and very tall plaster walls in a south shore mansion on long island; i was a teenager and the new owner, trying to save a dime, hired me to paint walls that the previous, well-heeled (old money) owners had always had professionals maintain. i had no more experience than many of these “painters” running around the city today and the owner ended up having to do the walls all over again and he was not happy. you need professionals.
i am not marketing myself by writing this here and do everything i can to avoid this kind of work.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 3 months ago
i just reread your post and looked at the photos. when i wrote above, i was addressing considerations you might have to make when choosing to skim coat or not (i was adding to what cate, colonial and brokelin were saying). but i just saw that your contractor is suggesting adding 5/8 rock to the walls? why? those plaster walls are in good condition and can be fixed. we had cracks here in this house and we had missing plaster and we had leak damage and i fixed it all and the walls look fine 16 years later.
as for the missing plaster. an experienced person can build that out with structolite or some or drywall ( i would use construction adhesive and put 1/2″ or 5/8″ drywall in there) and then level it out with dash patch and then tape it and skim it off. and there are different ways of doing this – different people will use different products with the same results. anyone doing this should have 3 ways of addressing this in their head without thinking about it.
as for leveling out walls a little here and there or filling holes with drywall compound and c leaning up the crappy work left by others: in the old days just 30 years ago, when we had professional painters in this city, they did that work as matter of course. when they quoted the job, the idea was they would improve upon what others had left. so a day of spackle, a little sanding the next day and maybe a tad more spackle after that and let it dry, sand it lightly and dust and prime and paint. this prep work was part of the job and EVERYONE knew how to do it and you were not a “painter” if you could not do it. they do not want to do this anymore and they use every excuse to get out of it.
these walls need tlc. they may also need the skim coating when all is done but some of that the painter should plan on doing anyway – more or less depending on what nap roller you choose.
brokelin | 3 years and 3 months ago
The contractors who suggest covering plaster walls with drywall (or removing plaster and replacing it with drywall) when the plaster walls can be easily fixed (even when it might involve some extensive use of plaster washers for larger cracks in places) are not the sort of contractors who specialize in restoring old houses. You may want to considering hiring this portion of the work out to someone who does.