Testing newly installed electric radiant floors

Hi all – you may remember me from recent threads about the end of my reno project. Well, the latest unfortunate surprise is that at least 2 of the 4 electric radiant floors that were installed do not heat up. So devastatingly disappointing. The clearly broken ones will need to be replaced entirely, fortunately not huge rooms. But, I want to be sure the other ones, which appear to heat up, are actually working properly.

I assume that if an electric floor heats up pretty much at all that means it’s working – the circuit is either complete or it is not. But, I don’t know. Is there someone who specializes in testing these things that can confirm, as obviously trust is lost with the contractor. Would this involve a heat camera?

Any help appreciated. Please help me get this stupid project done.

amt230

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I called Sun Touch and spoke to someone in tech support about these mats. The pad itself is called a “tape pad”. Sun touch considers these to be DIY items and the directions contained in the box are “written for homeowners”. The people doing an install on this are supposed to check the resistance (ohms) of the tape pad as soon as it is: “1. taken out of the box, 2. laid on the floor, and 3. after the tile is put on top of it”. If these are not working after the tile is put down, you know who damaged it.

the wire in them is solid strand and solid strand will break easier than stranded. he said flopping these around should not do it but standing on a rolled one can do it.

in so far as resistance (ohms), the largest 120 volt mat Sun Touch has is 10×10 (100 sq feet) and resistance on that mat is 10-13 Ohms. on the smallest 120 volt mat, (10 sq feet) the resistance is 108-134 ohms. these folks make over 40 sizes of pads and the voltage and resistance will be different for all of them. the resistance for these is on the tag on each pad. they will also state amp draw and yes, an ammeter can be used on a powered device (generally speaking, in my shop with 120 and 220 volt equipment, i try not to check anything under power; a clamp on ammeter will be ok here but i would not use an in-line meter; most homeowners do not have clamp on meters).

The thermostat is a simple on/off controller (not a variable as i suggested in an earlier post). when it is on and calling for heat, it should have continuity and it is ok to use a simple continuity tester on the thermostat.

if you are having things like this installed in your home by a job being run by a GC, put this language in the contract: “all manufacturer’s instructions and recommendations and industry standards will be followed”. if the GC does not ensure his people run these tests, it is on him. of course if OP is having trouble here and calls the GC and asks about the tests on this, he will have no idea what he is talking about because he never bothered to read the directions or call Sun Touch.

These devices are hard wired so messing with them in NYC will be against the codes. i am also not an electrician so what i have stated here should be confirmed by the instructions in the Sun Touch manual and basic safety must be followed.

The Sun Touch tech person (chris) was patient and spoke very clear and would be easy for a homeowner to deal with-

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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op, i know you are not going to do this but for anyone else reading this:

The systems can be “fried” in two ways. NYC Sport points out that the breaker will often trip. if the breaker is tripping, this indicates a direct short. a simple (cheap) continuity tester will indicate a short, yes, but may not pick up a functioning cable with built in high resistance (i do not know, i have not checked one and i do not know how many ohms these will register when they are operating correctly) (they have resistance, that is how they make heat). To test something that might be functioning, an ohm meter would be better than a simple continuity tester because it will tell someone if it is in spec. in so far as a break in the line, an ohm meter will indicate infinity.

Keep in mind that not all shorts will cause a breaker to trip. i recently had a short in one of our cars and it would stall the engine at idle but would not while on the road and it was not enough of a short to burn the fuse which made it hard to locate. we had a short in a wire in the house i grew up in and it was bad enough to pop the breaker sometimes and not others (it resulted in a fire).

In order to locate a problem in something like this: isolate each component from the other and test them individually. you don’t want the problem to be the controller screwing up the element. (with the problem i had in the car, it was an o2 sensor but until i located that, the entire car was no good – it was the o2 sensor screwing it all up).

also, if someone wants to get into this, it does not matter what these components are to a person with a multi meter doing a test. there are manufacturer specifications on these things – specifically “ohms” for the heating element and continuity across the controller which is probably an on/off thermostat and should show continuity when it is on (with a continuity tester or ohm meter). does not matter what someone is testing and to simply test it you do not really have to know how it does what it does (it helps a little).

don’t work on one of these with the power on and you can’t use the meters mentioned above with the power on.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Who makes the system?

nyc_sport | 2 years and 3 months ago

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The wall controllers for these systems fail frequently. This is probably a job for an electrician if you are not comfortable toiling with electricity. A basic multimeter can test the lines to the floor at the wall for continuity. There is nothing to break underfloor except the wire. If the wires are intact, it is virtually certain to be the controller. If a wire has fried, the system is junk, but then you often see the breaker tripping.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I am sitting here reading about this on line. Firstly, these should have been checked by someone with an ohm meter before they were tiled over and before being powered. Just test the leads coming from the heating element itself to its specified resistance. If the gc allowed his tile people to go over it without directing the electrician to check resistance, he failed. Now that it is installed, have the electrician check the amperage with it on before he leaves. If it is not showing any amperage, have the electrician disconnect the leads and check the resistance across them with an ohm meter. There needs to be resistance on resistance wire.

You would be wise to find a data sheet on it from the manufacturer in case the electrician has to refer to it.

amt230 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Great, thank you all. I’m basically trying to educate myself as we intend to cut ties with the contractor and negotiate credits for the work that needs to be done. The electrician I like and trust, and I expect I’ll need to keep working with him until the permit is closed (I don’t know how they can pass permits with this problem).

So, sounds like the electrician can do some basic diagnostic to confirm whether they are working from a technical perspective and I don’t need to be on my hands and knees with a thermometer to figure out if they are operational. For two of the mats I know the issue is that they replaced the tile over them to fix an error and definitely broke the mats. I’m trying to figure out how I can be sure, since this is my last negotiation with this rather unfortunate contractor, that the ones that appear to be working actually are.

Thx!

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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i would bet a lot of these units fail because they are made of wire and i am not sure if that is solid strand or multi strand – but if handled wrong, wire breaks. does not matter if it is solid strand (more likely to break) or multi strand (less likely) – bend it far enough or too many times and it causes a break. A break can be a complete break (no current) or a few strands (some current= higher resistance) or even something intermittent (which can arc). i would not let someone with no training handle these things and if one was going in in my own house, i would do it myself.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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For safety first, i would depower the item and isolate it and use and ohm meter across the leads.

The ammeter can not detect a break in the line on unpowered equipment but an ohm meter will. An ammeter needs power to read. The ohm meter relies on its own battery.

The manufacturer may have more specific details and may say to operate it and use an ammeter. Something i would try to avoid.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Ok, now this. These things run on resistance wire. Sort of the same wire in a toaster or hair dryer. This is how to test this kind of wire: check the resistance with an ohm meter. You will need the spec from the manufacturer. What dork is referring to as leads is very simply the 120v a/c lines, say after the switch or thermostat and the thermostat may be sort of a rheostat. And if there is a rheostat, that is also suspect (if it is not a rheostat, it does not matter what controller is has, there is a way to test it)

Op, you are coming on here asking a lot of questions as you close this job out. I have spent a life time working in this – at times in highly professional environments supervising in-house building mechanics, contractors, and performing a lot of work in commercial buildings myself – including electric work – and consulting with architects and engineers. I am also a contractor. Part of my job has always been to look at things in buildings and figure out what is wrong and who can fix them – be it in house or by calling a licensed trade. while i am sure you can watch a you tube video on how to do this, know that if this were me, I do not have watch a video to troubleshoot the components of any control loop to isolate the problem.

I do not claim to know everything but everyone from this board who has called me has been surprised by what i have found in their homes and has equally been overwhelmed by what i was able to teach them. they take notes to expand on what i put in the report. when i do not know something, i look the homeowner in the eye and i tell them “i do not know” (happens at least once or twice during an inspection). know this: if i do not know something, I will have the answer by the next day (unless it takes further investigation by an engineer or licensed trade).

If you would like to call me and convey some of your concerns to me and see what i can say to them, i am available.

Steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com

Master Plvmber | 2 years and 3 months ago

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You’ll need to take an amperage reading and a thermal image. Electric radiant floor heat is total crap compared to hydronic RFH but when it works, it’s a good cheap, comfortable floor warming system for as long as it lasts. Eventually all electric resistance heaters stop working though.

dorkofwindsor | 2 years and 3 months ago

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if you have access to the leads you can buy a cheap multimeter on amazon and check them. if you cannot find the leads, you need to do that first. after you find the leads, search youtube ie “how to test electric radiant rolls with a multimeter” etc. hopefully the rolls test out ok and it is just a connection issue.

wfrxmhzynkiopcra | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Definitely do not assume that it is all or nothing working. I’m sure it varies by system but mine had spotty heat.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Do what luker says first.

If you still have not sorted the roof leaks out and wish a haag certified roof inspector to write a report on the condition of the roof, call me. I will bring along a thermal imaging camera and we can look at the floor.

Steve
Brownstone Home Inspection LLC

Lurker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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a good place to start is with the manufacturer of the radiant rolls–they can likely advise you on ways to detect whether an install is functioning properly at least.