Tenant wants lead testing.

She said pediatrician tested her toddler for lead and she has level above the treshhold.
Now… we do not have anything that we did not touch in this apartment for 20 years.
Floors throughout the apartment is new oak about 12 years old, all new windows with new frames and windowsills, some replaced twice, wood trims were sanded,
stripped in some places, floor basedboards sanded or replaced and painted..
Kitchen was moved with an architect permit, original room taken to the studs, new kitchen – almost everything, and tiled over.
Bathrooms were taken to the brick, all pipes replaced, wonderboarded and tiled, new watermain…
Ceiling – we have original only in 2 rooms, one – painted over tin and one – plaster.
The rest was replaced with sheetrock or laminated with sheetrock.
Walls – either were skimcoated in 2 larger rooms, or sheetrocked.
We had 5 families in this apartment, naturally, we renovate and paint each time. We do not like paint caked over, so, patches and all woodwork was lightly sanded before new coat of paint.

so, everything was painted over at least 5 times .

I am at loss: what could be wrong. Thinking about it – we have nothing to worry about. We raised our child in apartment below, and it was much less renovated while our child was a toddler. We did lead testing on her too, and it was normal.
We had many toddlers in the apartment I was describing. 6 toddlers to be exact. Never had we face this problem.
Still I am scared to death now.

lucie

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you. We will get test kits just for ourselves but will do whatever inspection our tenants want. If some lead paint is present in our house, it is covered by several layers of new paint everywhere, we checked this yesterday.
and this is what I think is required from us as landlord: to remove access to the lead paint from tenants. Nobody required to replace all old surfaces with new ( even if we did replace a lot of surfaces). And nobody requires to strip all lead paint, it has to be not accessible, am I right?
So, we will see if they are able to find anything.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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OP, this is what i did because it behooves me to have a better understanding of this. i am a restoration contractor and only recently got my home inspectors license. i just bought 2 lead test kits (4 swabs). i went down to where i worked at my bench last year (it was new years day 2022). that floor has been swept but not mopped. i usually use a hepa dust collection system when i sand but i was actually cutting rotten wood out of a 100 plus year old door that day. i ran the test on the floor and it came back pink and pretty dark (these things turn dark pink fast if there is a lot of lead, less pink if there is less lead). i also ran one on the bench. after doing this i washed the floor and bench as someone wood with a very damp mop. i dried the floor and bench with a clean t shirt. i ran the tests again and they came back light pink. so i did not get all of the lead up when i cleaned.

what i am saying is, you might run around in there and find some lead.

i will add this, this self administered test kits will mean NOTHING to a wise tenant nor to t he city. they will want to see a test by a licensed lead inspector and they must be licensed in NYC. i would look at that post above recommending someone.

I promise you this: the city is going to do everything in their power to have that child tested again in a few months. they twisted my arm about getting retested but at 57 years old, i ignored them. if i could find all of the stuff they mailed me i would post it but i think i threw it out.

if you can not find any test kits near you, Harry’s Hardware in Middle Village has 4 left on the shelf right now.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, all things that are “old” are:
tin ceiling painted in the living room,
doors and wood trim, painted, mouldings and ceiling medallions, painted,
wood shutters were personally stripped my me 🙂 and then I stained shutters with stain gel along with new wood frames and windows ( windows are marvin wood inside that came unfinished),
pocket doors, also painted,
original built in in kitchen-dining, also painted, but I have noticed paint chipped, the size of about an inch half circle, on the level when baby can reach. Old yellowish paint is exposed in this small area, but not chipped as of now, firmly attached.
Obviously it is a fresh chip, it was painted before tenants moved in.
Easily paintable, but…
How one can control such things…. Replace everything with new?

also, I read new requirements and new guidelines.
when our child was a toddler and we did lead tests because we could not afford to renovate our own apartment directing all our funds to tenants apartments improvements, it was before 2012 and the threshold was all below 10.
So, she had tests that were co nsidered normal ( and I do not even remember what number she had, normal is normal).
Then after 2012 it was made what, 5?
And then after 2020 new threshold is 3.5, so, 3.8 is “above”.

I wonder if it is time to sell: how we can control things if new threshold will go even lower?
How we can control the dust in the house? Who knows how the dust is traveling?
Yesterday I looked at the carpet on the stairs. It was dirty.
And we have maintenance coming twice a month to vacuum it.
when we lived in one of the apartments at least we can vacuum and wipe the dust with wet rugs ourselves and make sure all hallways are clean.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, all things that are “old” are:
tin ceiling painted in the living room,
doors and wood trim, painted, mouldings and ceiling medallions, painted,
wood shutters were personally stripped my me 🙂 and then I stained shutters with stain gel along with new wood frames and windows ( windows are marvin wood inside that came unfinished),
pocket doors, also painted,
original built in in kitchen-dining, also painted, but I have noticed paint chipped, the size of about an inch half circle, on the level when baby can reach. Old yellowish paint is exposed in this small area, but not chipped as of now, firmly attached.
Obviously it is a fresh chip, it was painted before tenants moved in.
Easily paintable, but…
How one can control such things…. Replace everything with new?

also, I read new requirements and new guidelines.
when our child was a toddler and we did lead tests because we could not afford to renovate our own apartment directing all our funds to tenants apartments improvements, it was before 2012 and the threshold was all below 10.
So, she had tests that were co nsidered normal ( and I do not even remember what number she had, normal is normal).
Then after 2012 it was made what, 5?
And then after 2020 new threshold is 3.5, so, 3.8 is “above”.

I wonder if it is time to sell: how we can control things if new threshold will go even lower?
How we can control the dust in the house? Who knows how the dust is traveling?
Yesterday I looked at the carpet on the stairs. It was dirty.
And we have maintenance coming twice a month to vacuum it.
when we lived in one of the apartments at least we can vacuum and wipe the dust with wet rugs ourselves and make sure all hallways are clean.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Sorry, i just saw you have new windows.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Going with what bq says above, if you have old wood windows, the tendancy will be for air to enter due to stack effect. Slowly all the time. If you have encapsulated the visible lead in the house but cannot seem to find the source and you see rub wear there, i would test for lead there.

I have used these lead sticks. They will find lead at the source (the exposed painted surface) but i have never tried it on say a surface that had dust on it but has since been swept clean. I am tempted to buy some of these and run them around the workbench where i sanded a year ago. Its been ceaned since but it would be interesting to see if descernable residue is left.

My thought is to find this on say the floor of a home that is cleaned regularly, it is going to take a professional and it will take a pro to allay the fears of the parent. To make the pros job easy, i would not do a clean up until after they visit.

There are handi wipes made for removing lead from surfaces. I have never but them but customers have provided them.

And i am not sure i would call my insur ance agent about this incident. I could see calling them with a general question before something arises but in truth i never call insurance agents about anything. Never have with my business and when i worked in buildings we never did unless we had an actual claim. Not a potential claim. Remember, they are not your agent, they are the insurance company’s agent. You don’t want anyone getting any ideas that you are a risk. I would pay the lead inspection out of pocket as well, don’t try yo put a claim in for that.

bqeresident1 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Doors are often the culprit – city will look at friction surfaces (windows and doors) first the opening and closing will create dust the baby an ingest. At least 3.8 is low – threshold used to be 5 until very recently i believe – still must be scary for parents.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Our son tested high for lead recently in our owned home, the city followed up but based on a pediatric report. we informed them we had a professional firm come round to do an assessment and that kept them happy. We used Luke from Brooklyn Lead – https://www.parkslopeparents.com/reviews/brooklyn-lead-luke-gray , he wasn’t expensive and highlighted a couple of areas to look at.

Local lead law 31 came into act in 2020 so you are required to perform a test if you have tenants with children under 6. https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downloads/pdfs/services/fix-lead-paint-hazards-english.pdf

Luke would for sure be a good person to chat to., he will give you the lay of the land with 0 judgement.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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In an old enough house you will find lead if you test enough places. If you test negative in 10 places, you will then be more likely to test positive if you sample 100 places, and so on. This is worth noting even though it quite obvious.
You seem like a generally responsible and considerate landlord. Would your tenant agree that you were effective at abating or enclosing lead if they found out you tested 999 negative samples but the 1,000th one resulted in positive? I am not suggesting you do not test for lead. I am suggesting you consider the biases of the people and professionals you are encountering or will encounter regarding this matter.
Do you have a good insurance agent who you can generally ask about this kind of scenario? That could be a helpful phone call to make so they can at least advise you about any pitfalls that you might otherwise unknowingly get yourself into.
It is good that the parents have the test results because the kid is the most important issue here. Hopefully the parents are the type to take active measures to personally reduce their kid’s exp osure risks. It is CRAZY how much lead we tolerate in every day items: https://www.webmd.com/special-reports/lead-dangers/20170906/lead-consumer-products

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Also, mine was we think from one intense exposure. I was cutting rotton wood off an old painted door. The mess i made was visible and all over the floor. It was a lot and it pushed it quite high. My thought is, if this is 3.8 and you cannot see anything on the floor, it must be so fine and limited that the baby might be ingesting it slowly over the course of weeks? Its only a thought but my thinking is this may mean this is going to be very hard for you to find.

Fyi, we are not supposed to sand inside. The dust literally gets everywhere from this work (i am a restoration person). Whoever is sanding in those apts must wet sand or use a proper collection system.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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If you are in a position to have a pro look at the apt, making that move will help the optics. You said you consulted an atty and while any business/landlord would be wise to know their risk, the parent and city might want to see the testing. I am sure the city has seen a lot worse than 3.8 in children.

Read about what these companies can do to isolate the problems and how successfull they are and the cost. Educate your self a little and then call them. If you are not worried about paying for tests, it will only work to your favor to do the right thing and stop this before it gets worse.

They told me that once this source is removed, it goes down in a few months. I was supposed to play it safe and get retested. I did not but i would not be so casual with my son.

I will read about this tonight myself. Go to the city dept health website.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Ironically all lead tests are sold out in both 11215 home depot and lowes.
We came to the apartment tonight. Everything looks very good except of some minor dents on woodwork, probably from moving furniture.
And some pieces of cement crambs on the bottom of the nonworking fireplace (which we def. fix asap but now we want this inspection to understand where they will be looking.
Tenants said that threshold number is 3.5 and baby has 3.8.
It does not look much above but still i am terribly sorry for the baby and do not understand where it could be coming from in the apartment that is in a such good condition.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Ironically all lead tests are sold out in both 11215 home depot and lowes.
We came to the apartment tonight. Everything looks very good except of some minor dents on woodwork, probably from moving furniture.
And some pieces of cement crambs on the bottom of the nonworking fireplace (which we def. fix asap but now we want this inspection to understand where they will be looking.
Tenants said that threshold number is 3.5 and baby has 3.8.
It does not look much above but still i am terribly sorry for the baby and do not understand where it could be coming from in the apartment that is in a such good condition.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Ok. That is probably not what the tenant or health dept will want to hear. Call a lead testing and abatement firm. Ask them some questions. Tell them the truth. Tell them the place has been renod and you have no idea where this is coming from and ask them if this situation is unusual and also if you pay them to come in if they think they can find the source. Maybe they will rattle off five places this can be coming from that none of use would even think of.

If you call a smaller firm, a consultant who does not physically abate but does testing and offers paid accurate advice, you might get the main person on the phone, not some receptionist.

And the first thing i would have done is gotten two dozen self lead test kits and run all over the place with them. I would have done that today.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Basement is finished with sheetrock, tiled floor, nothing is old there except the dirt under the gravel and wet barrier. Can not think of anything.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Basement is finished with sheetrock, tiled floor, nothing is old there except the dirt under the gravel and wet barrier. Can not think of anything.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, we already contacted an attorney

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, we already contacted an attorney

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Brokelin is correct. The city is going to assume this happen in that home. They are going to focus on that and after i wrote what i said earlier, i thought about this while at work today and i think it unfolded like this for me: my doctor gave them my phone number and they called me first and announced who they were. Of course, this was a work exposure and it did not happen in a customers house and i am an adult but the woman was asking questions and was not willing to just let me get off the phone even though i knew exactly how this happen. The letter from the health dept arrived a few days after the phone call. My guess is, the tenant will be giving your number to the health dept. I would learn as much as i can now so you can tell them something to show you are proactive. I would not avoid them if they call.

Check everything right down to your basement. Everything. And look for chips in that apt. Maybe a door is rubbing someplace where the baby crawls? Maybe dust is traveling up?

Seek advice from a lead specialist company right awa y.

Try to get in front of this now. Do not try to guess or hope that this happen elsewhere. They will not want to hear this with a child. I am an adult and they would not let me dismiss them when they called. If this hits 10ppm(?), they will visit.