Tenant wants lead testing.

She said pediatrician tested her toddler for lead and she has level above the treshhold.
Now… we do not have anything that we did not touch in this apartment for 20 years.
Floors throughout the apartment is new oak about 12 years old, all new windows with new frames and windowsills, some replaced twice, wood trims were sanded,
stripped in some places, floor basedboards sanded or replaced and painted..
Kitchen was moved with an architect permit, original room taken to the studs, new kitchen – almost everything, and tiled over.
Bathrooms were taken to the brick, all pipes replaced, wonderboarded and tiled, new watermain…
Ceiling – we have original only in 2 rooms, one – painted over tin and one – plaster.
The rest was replaced with sheetrock or laminated with sheetrock.
Walls – either were skimcoated in 2 larger rooms, or sheetrocked.
We had 5 families in this apartment, naturally, we renovate and paint each time. We do not like paint caked over, so, patches and all woodwork was lightly sanded before new coat of paint.

so, everything was painted over at least 5 times .

I am at loss: what could be wrong. Thinking about it – we have nothing to worry about. We raised our child in apartment below, and it was much less renovated while our child was a toddler. We did lead testing on her too, and it was normal.
We had many toddlers in the apartment I was describing. 6 toddlers to be exact. Never had we face this problem.
Still I am scared to death now.

lucie

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, I understand. We were always proactive in fixing things.
The question is will it really help if tenant decide to sue us.
I asked my contractor to do the video on Monday when they will be tiling te bottpm of the fireplace.
It is a small atea 2′ x1′ and the outer edge started to cramble.
I asked the tenant to remove rugs, mats, toys from the living room.
I instructed my contractor, we discussed this and he will make a tent from wet old sheets around the fireplave (i always have a laundered old cotton sheets supply in case we need it for some covering up. It is better to use together with plastic sheets).
I specifically stressed not to disturb or force anything but jently remove what is loose, wash the area, cover it with the layer of thinset and put the tile at the whole bottom of the fireplace 2 sf.
He will be cutting tile to fit in front of the building.
I also asked to surround the area with the barriet of yet another layer of wet sheets on the floor.
And they will make a video of the process. Tenants will be away this weekend.
I do not know if it helps. I asked contractor to do a strips test before (hopefully he will be able to buy it at his home depot) but fix this small spit nevertheless

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "3"
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OP this is a reliable expert agency regarding these matters. Not free, and maybe not inexpensive but worth an inquiry call if you are still looking for the best course of action
https://www.jackjaffa.com

cate | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Jeremy’s comment above is spot on.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Another pro active move. Take advantage of it.

Things go wrong in businesses and in office buildings (think of being a landlord as running a business). People who manage businesses and buildings and contractors like me encounter issues everday. Sometimes they are issues we bring about but most often they are unforeseen problems brought about by others. Any contractor who tells you (i am a contractor) they have never had a customer unhappy about something on a job is full of s**t. I have someone not happy about something now in my door business and i have to deal with it and make it right. YOU have an unhappy customer right now.

When something goes wrong, make it about THEM. Forget lawyers. When i f up in my contracting business or when something goes wrong in a building, do you think we call insurance agents and lawyers? Hell no. That is not what we are paid to do and if we know our jobs we already know our responsibilities anyway and more than the lawyers anyway. Know this about running a business or being a landlord; you are automatically responsi ble. And guilty. This is what we do: get our asses in gear fast. It is as much about the optics to allay the customer’s (tenants and office workers in commercial are customers) fear as it is about correcting what is wrong and MITIGATING so it does not get worse and so that if for some reason it does, you have a report to say it is not you or a plan in place if need be.

The self test shows the customer that you are doing something right away. They will like seeing you crawl around on the floor with test swabs.

Calling a lead inspector and having a conversation with that person will tell you what the realities are and what they will be able to tell you and not be able to tell you.

Having a lead inspector come in will hopefully tell you if the problem is there and give you a defense if it is not. The optics are that you did not worry about a thousand dollars when the child’s health was an issue. Customer will like this. So will the city.

If you do not find where the lead the child is ingesting is comeing from (i am thinking dust from air movement or rub wear), you keep looking on your own with test swabs in other parts of the building in case there is dust. The swabs will mean nothing in a court of law but save them along with the report from the inspector to show the city that you did ALL you can.

See if soil can be tested even if that family has not been in that spot. This you can do by sending it to a lab cheap. Test it anyway so if the city comes knocking, you know where you might have a concern or maybe dug it out and put fresh soil.

If the inspector finds obvious concerns, fix them.

No matter what the lead inspector’s detrrmination is, you purchase lead wipes. Let the tenant see the box. Get down on your hands and knees and clean everything. Right after the inspector leaves. If you make repairs, more lead wipes. Keep the box.

Ignore everything else that has been said here and take it from someone who has worked in buildings in a supervisory or management capacity since october of 1990 and HAS NEVER BEEN SUED OR SERVED PAPERS AND HAS NEVER BEEN CALLED BEFORE A LICENSING BOARD AND WHOSE BOSSES HAVE NEVER BEEN SERVED PAPERS BECAUSE OF THEIR INACTION OR WRONG ACTION (i have been handed fire department violations more than once but even those i have gotten out of, for the most part and i could have been handed dozens more but because i respond with action, i have avoided some) and has had to mitigate dozens of situations like this where someone could have been sued or where someone could have called the authorities such as the dob or health department. You have to take appropriate action right now. I have told you what it is.

A big part of the issues people have on this board is NOT knowing how to manage a situation. This is how you manage.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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“Size of the dollar area” sounds bad. I meant size of the metal dollar.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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“Size of the dollar area” sounds bad. I meant size of the metal dollar.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Bob, it seems you are missing the liability concern.
Do the tenants sue the landlord if an unencapsulated source of lead is discovered upon testing? Possibly yes.
Does the landlord want to cause their own exposure to this risk by testing 100% of the property? Probably not.
Does this mean the landlord doesn’t care about the kid’s health? Of course not.
Lead exposure comes from many places. Possible it came from the house. Also possible it came from the kid’s diet, daycare, play areas, etc.
It seems the OP has good concern for the kid’s health and also for protecting against potential claims that the house is what caused the kid’s elevated lead levels. If a positive test came from the house then it would be difficult to scientifically prove that the house caused the elevated levels (as opposed to only being a possible contributing source). Based on experience, numerous people and agencies are likely to assume and accuse landlord of being the one and only cause of h arm to kid if a positive lead test is found in the house. Our litigious society can unfortunately be not very forgiving or understanding in difficult situations like this

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Panic is because I realize how vulnerable our position is. Scared park slope parent type of tenant, also, somewhat above average busy history of complains and demands (based on our 20 years experience).
Also, new parent, new baby, naturally they will be overprotective.

I read already that there are no normal lead level. 3.5 the threshold is not normal either, 1 is not good as well. 0.1 is not good for the sake of argument!
Theoretically.
The threshold of 3.5 only means that the 97% of the USA kids younger then 6 (whatever the method to measure this) are measured on or below this threshold.
This threshold keeps falling when CDC gets to review it once in sevetal years due to the fact that the dangerously high sources are constantly eliminated in the country. Before 2012 97% of this group were measured 10 or lower, before 2020 – 5%, after 2020 – 3.5. And we do not discuss the method of measuring.

My source of panic is that it seems no matter what we do – i am guilty because i am a landlord who owns house built before 1960s (1885 to be exact).
Common sence says that the levels that are documented in medical science as obviously dangerous and poisonous : >30 – most probably come from the habitat, from the house where child lives.

3.8? It is a gray area. It is almost a “theshold”. Dangerous because any level is dangerous theoretically nevertheless. But probably lead ladden house could produce much higher numbers.

We are willing to review and test the apartment. And remediate if something will be found just to help the situation with the baby. But I am scared of a canworm of lawsuites and such.
I am scared to mention to this tenants that prick on the gingernails and toenails (most common method of testing) could produce falsly higer tesults then blood drawn from vienn (and who does it if given a choice to their baby). Because it might look like am trying to play the danger down and avoud my responsibility and lawsuit.
I am scared to rush and fix small couple of things that we had noticed during our last visit (that exposed size of a dollar area of paint where upper layer is chipped and crambling area at the bottom of the non-working fireplace). I was scared to rush and fix it before the inspection – what if it might look like cover up of the crime.
Then common sence prevailed to eliminate a possible danger when we noticed it and we are fixing it on Monday.

lucie | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Panic is because I realize how vulnerable our position is. Scared park slope parent type of tenant, also, somewhat above average busy history of complains and demands (based on our 20 years experience).
Also, new parent, new baby, naturally they will be overprotective.

I read already that there are no normal lead level. 3.5 the threshold is not normal either, 1 is not good as well. 0.1 is not good for the sake of argument!
Theoretically.
The threshold of 3.5 only means that the 97% of the USA kids younger then 6 (whatever the method to measure this) are measured on or below this threshold.
This threshold keeps falling when CDC gets to review it once in sevetal years due to the fact that the dangerously high sources are constantly eliminated in the country. Before 2012 97% of this group were measured 10 or lower, before 2020 – 5%, after 2020 – 3.5. And we do not discuss the method of measuring.

My source of panic is that it seems no matter what we do – i am guilty because i am a landlord who owns house built before 1960s (1885 to be exact).
Common sence says that the levels that are documented in medical science as obviously dangerous and poisonous : >30 – most probably come from the habitat, from the house where child lives.

3.8? It is a gray area. It is almost a “theshold”. Dangerous because any level is dangerous theoretically nevertheless. But probably lead ladden house could produce much higher numbers.

We are willing to review and test the apartment. And remediate if something will be found just to help the situation with the baby. But I am scared of a canworm of lawsuites and such.
I am scared to mention to this tenants that prick on the gingernails and toenails (most common method of testing) could produce falsly higer tesults then blood drawn from vienn (and who does it if given a choice to their baby). Because it might look like am trying to play the danger down and avoud my responsibility and lawsuit.
I am scared to rush and fix small couple of things that we had noticed during our last visit (that exposed size of a dollar area of paint where upper layer is chipped and crambling area at the bottom of the non-working fireplace). I was scared to rush and fix it before the inspection – what if it might look like cover up of the crime.
Then common sence prevailed to eliminate a possible danger when we noticed it and we are fixing it on Monday.

markwalker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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The city offers lead testing kits for water.

https://www.nyc.gov/content/leadfree/pages/request-water-test-kit

If anyone is wondering about their plumbing.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Bob, read what the op says about wanting to allow the tenant to suggest the test and read how many times i and someone else mention lead inspector and how many times others mention attoneys and insurance agents as if they are going to help after the fact when the concern is a child’s health.and safety.

Calling a lawyer is not pro active. It is reactive. Calling the city health dept and asking them what to do is pro active.

shahnandersen

in General Discussion 2 years and 3 months ago

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I must be missing something here in this very long hyperventilating thread, but I see a lot of panic by the OP and the respondents and I don’t understand why. A tenant’s child in a highly renovated house has a somewhat elevated lead level whose source is unknown and an owner who seems willing to do what is necessary to assure that here house is lead free. Isn’t the simplest thing is to hire a testing firm (one was recommended above). They either will find no lead or will find some places with lead and propose mitigations which the OP seems willing to perform. Again, am I missing something or shouldn’t this solve the problem of the apartment being a possible lead source?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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The landlord’s responsibility is to locate the source (inspector) and fix the problem. Fixing the problem includes encapsulation.

Keep a record of the inspection in case the city asks for it.

Be aware that if the tennant does not feel this is being dealt with, the city’s notice to tennant’s advises them to call 311.

It’s on the ‘net. I just read it.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Be proactive, move forward. Read the full responsibilites jeremy is pointing out (all of this is on line and it does not take a law degree to read). Test, locate,document, encapsulate (that”s a guess, i did not read it). Lawyer sounds like unnecessary and unneeded waste of time and expense when what the city will want to see is action. If the licensed inspector cannot locate a possible source or the city or tennant threatens further action seek council. If i were a parent in this situation and heard the landlord went to attoney first, i would think the landlord is more concerned about their assets than my child’s health. If i were a parent, i would be demanding an inspector be there immediatly.

I glanced at some of this today. The city writes this stuff so 5th graders can understand it if we took the trouble to look.

cate | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Your best bet is to get advice from your attorney about next steps, if your attorney specializes in lead and landlord tenant, including repping landlords on lead issues. There’s a very good chance the lead is not coming from your apartment but, as Jeremy says above, if the city is testing your unit for lead, it’s likely they’ll find it somewhere. The chipping bit you mention could be an issue.. If the tin ceilings is painted with new paint and not flaking, that’s fine, but if it’s flaking, that could be a culprit. If the tenants want to be smart, they’ll keep the baby away from potential lead sources. We live in an old house, and our child and our tenants’ child tested zero for lead on all their tests.

cate | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Mind you, a gut renovation will create huge clouds of lead dust.

neilw | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Do they have access to the backyard and is it dirt? Tons of lead in the soil, we know some people who ran into that. Also the city will test water for free if you want to eliminate that as a variable.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Annual testing and encapsulation or removal of hazards is required by multifamily owners. We are not (yet) being required to remove all lead from rental units. However, due to these increasing lead regulations it is difficult to advise anything other than full gut renovation (or at very least stripping to the bone any original asthetic features desired for keeping) whenever significant renovation work is performed. Up to a few years ago we would keep plaster walls for budget renovations but now the complia

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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no, do not do what the tenant wants. if something goes wrong here, the tenant is not going to argue that you did what they wanted in your defense. your fear here is not the tenants. it is the city. if that lead kicks up, the doctor MUST notify the city and the city will come down very hard on you. i am not sure what the threshold is to trigger a visit now (it used to be 10 mgl or something) but you have to get in front of this now. i was afraid of the city when they called me (they caught me off guard, the doctor gave them my number and did not tell me he was doing so; i did not even have my own lab results at that point) and i did this to myself and have no employees. if the parents do not take charge of this (and i can guarantee you that the parents will take the child back for a test in a couple of months), the city will take over and the city will walk into your house. cate or someone said it above. and someone said it on here years ago that they start ripping the trim off.

call that person the people mention above and start asking him questions. it sounds like he is well established locally and someone like that is less likely to mislead someone. if he is licensed he has every right to guide you. the rest of us are guessing.