Reusing old door
It’s up to the architect or engineer signing off on the TR8 energy inspections.
jimhillra
in General Discussion 3 years and 2 months ago
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Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
Our GC always wants us to throw out old stuff and buy new. We got rid of a nice bathtub because he and the plumber said it wouldn’t work with modern plumbing rules. Toilets (not particularly nice) have to go because they use too much water. But what hurts is he says we can’t adapt a very nice hardwood door to use as an exterior door onto our (hoped for) deck. Again he blames energy regulations. The door is very heavy, has nice paneling on one side, and a place in which to put glass. Can we legally use such a door, and if so, what glass do we need and how do we document that the glass meets DOB requirements? The door would probably need to be cut down, but my husband says he could do that. Before we got an architect and GC he already adapted two doors we brought from Ithaca to use in the basement. Thanks!
cate | 3 years and 2 months ago
I don’t know of any bathtub that can’t be used. The only rule is the faucet spout where the water comes out has to be higher than the overflow drain. This is easily accomplished by buying a new faucet that rises up. You can buy all the necessary parts on Vintage Tub and Bath online. Some of these parts such as the rigid nickel supply lines require a real plumber to install, the type of experienced and licensed plumber who can cut and thread a pipe, not a GC. What kind of bathtub was it? As far as the door is concerned, you must use an exterior door, not an interior door. It must be a certain thickness to work. Otherwise it moves, bends and warps too much and it will need refinishing/painting several times a year and it will not seal or close properly, not to mention it will not be secure. But the real issue may be that your GC only knows how to install a prehung door that comes on a frame. You might want to speak to an expert woodworker who creates and/or installs/repairs custom doors, including ones that pass Landmarks, to see if they would recommend using this door and how much they would charge you to install it with the proper surround and weatherstripping. Also, you don’t want to alter the size and shape too extremely because that will also compromise the structural stability of the door. I’ve never heard of any “energy regulations” that force a NYC homeowner to use a particular type of door.
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 3 years and 2 months ago
Maybe the old bathtub didn’t have an overflow drain, although I don’t know if that’s actually required. FWIW my 1899 tub doesn’t have one and it hasn’t been a problem, although it does require some minimal intelligence when drawing a bath. As to interior doors for outside use, t h e original back door from our shed/mud room was identical to our interior doors. It may have been legal, but the space was very cold. After living with it for 40+ years we replaced it with (horrors!) a pre-hung insulated fiberglass door and have no regrets. However our original door was neither hardwood nor especially nice.
resident2 | 3 years and 2 months ago
It is always best to use contractors that work on restorations & renovations of older buildings only. And that appreciate the craft of prior builders, craftspeople etc.
Unfortunately there are too many that just want to rip everything out and put all new in.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 2 months ago
as to what resident 2 says, we exist to save old doors.
Did you discuss any of this before signing with the GC? Half the reason people move into Brownstone Brooklyn and the only reason my company exists is so people who like old wood can keep their old wood.
as for the glass. we have to use tempered or laminated safety glass. beveled glass and double pane units can be tempered as well as sheet glass. I do not know at what point everything in the building has to conform to modern codes (at what percent of a reno – in terms of value – might the dob to require that everything conforms to modern code, even things you did not go near) but when we rebuild doors, we will ONLY install conforming glass. the DOB looks at an approval label on the glass that identifies it as safety glass. look at a car window, that is the same label.
i order all of my glass without the safety label even when i know that we are on a job where the DOB will be doing a n inspection. we have never had a dob inspector say anything about the label not being on glass. i would not install anything that does not conform though in case a child ever goes through it.
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
I wrote to answer this and thank people but the reply must have gotten lost. First, thanks to everyone who answered, and second, of course we will use safety glass but how do we meet R-value requirements? Thick glass? Could we order an double-paned insert? If we get glass with an appropriate R-value will the DOB accept it, if we do it ourselves rather than ordering from a window/door company?
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 3 years and 2 months ago
IS there actually any R-value requirement? Not that energy saving isn’t a good idea.
stevecym | 3 years and 2 months ago
Ok. Laminated safety glass offers some r value over plate glass. And yes. You can install double pane units. If this is a single entry door, a double pane unit might add some benefit because a single door can be sealed with insulated door stop. On a double entry door, that double pane glass adds little or no value.
Anyone living near ridgewood, i know most of what i know about glass from Al at Major Lock and Glass on Fresh Pond. They supply all of our glass. They will not deliver to bed sty though and if you are down there, i would try to find someone local.
To what bob is saying, i dont think there is an actual r value requirement on these old places. In new construction they made some changes post 1970’s in the interest of conservation but i am not sure how much is code and how much is voluntary.
stickerhappy | 3 years and 2 months ago
We did a permitted job and re-used some materials and it was no issue at all.
I think your contractors true concern is less about code and more about not wanting to do the extra work needed to reuse materials. For sure it’s much easier for him to install a new prehung door than retrofit back in an older one that might not be square and can only be more complicated to install than a brand new door.
He’s just making excuses I’d say— but if he quoted the job allotting the work time he estimated for installing new materials and not considering the unknown extra time for potential issues of working with older materials than he might be right to push back a bit.
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
thanks, that’s good to know.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 2 months ago
sticker happy, i agree with what you are saying about a contractor making excuses but no professional contractor would leave any “gray area” in a contract and the onus is on the contractor to ensure that every detail is gone over: what stays, what goes, the manufacturer number of any new product down to the doors, molding profiles, hinges on the door and the paint and primer. if the contractor did not ask if it goes and tell what he is going to replace it with, then it stays. no assumptions (i used to tell my staff: never assume anything on a project on someone’s home; we never really know what a customer wants until they tell us).
if people are signing contracts like this, they are giving contractors too much latitude and this is where the disputes that we see on this board occur. it might be a good idea that this site create a library that houses examples of professional contracts. maybe i will find one later and post it.
people on this board have to understand the power they hold over contractors and that it is their right to wield it.
keep in mind, some of these contractors have the taste of a flea. they would install white fiberglass doors in brownstone brooklyn if we let them get away with it.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 2 months ago
sorry op and sticker happy. i just reread the post. you carried some doors down from ithaca.
if you are keeping the old frame, it might require some work. not only to the height and width but also filling of old hinge mortises and moving and resetting the latch. many contractors who are not prepared for restoration work simply put bondo or wood filler in these voids when what they need is thickened epoxy and in the case of real damage, the removal and replacement of wood (bondo and wood filler crack and fall out; i think some trades people think bondo is epoxy and i see them using it on jobs; it is not epoxy and has no tenacity). all this work i am describing requires cutting and sanding that most people do not want to be bothered with; it is easier to change the frame yet the contractor may not be set up to make a new frame; most people today are “installers”. as sticker happy says, the contractor might be justified in pushing back here.
also, depending on what glass you use, you may be better off installing it yourselves at the end of the job (if y ou order anything but laminated safety glass). if you get a tempered double pane unit, the contractor has a right to be concerned about handling that because one nick from a nail on installation and it is all over. lami does not break so easy. lami can be had in a day but tempered glass could take a week or more and a tempered double pane unit could take two weeks. tempered costs more, double pane or not.
considering that this appears to be a single door, if you seal it properly with insulated door stop (no not from home depot, but from Dykes – it is on the right side against the wall as you walk in, by the front window: we now make our own as it only comes to 84″) you may benefit some from the double pane glass unit.
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
Thanks very much. Our situation is nonstandard. Our first architect had a bad reaction to a covid shot and resigned. The second one sounded enthusiastic, and was willing to start on the basis of x dollars to do preliminary drawings and get permits. We got permits for the inside work (except for the back wall), but we did not have the drawings needed to apply for a deck/back wall permit (both our architect and our expeditor had said we should put off getting permits for the deck and back wall).
Then our architect got more and more grumpy and finally quit (in the process extracting money from us to get his drawings). I believe he thought we did not sufficiently respect his talents. Our expeditor (who is also a licensed architect) agreed to become our architect, but not to provide design work. She got drawings done and sent to the engineers; we are waiting on their response.
A corollary to all this is we never got plans drawn up in sufficient detail to bid out the job, and in any case we wanted a GC who would allow my husband to take part in things. So essenti ally we are winging it and working on a time and materials basis, which I know is generally considered madness. It is surely not the cheapest way to go, but the work is being done well – my husband is there almost every day – and we are able, when we want, to choose subcontractors other than the ones the GC proposes. The GC is also flexible; my husband may not be able to do some jobs he had planned to do because he is scheduled to have heart surgery. In that case the GC will take over.
Getting back to the door – I don’t think we could put off doing it until after all the other work has been done and inspected because the door with transom above would be taller than the existing window, and would presumably require structural support for the wall above, with input from an engineer. But if we can convince the GC that the DOB will accept the door, I hope we can come to an agreement. My husband needs to take a careful look at it. The GC is furring out the party wall, so the new door would have to be a little narrower than the existing window; otherwise it would block the kitchen counter.
I have made notes about using epoxy and a door stop. Thanks again.
cate | 3 years and 2 months ago
I don’t know what kind of house you have, but it’s likely the original window openings were pretty tall on the garden and parlor floors. In any case, good luck with everything.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 2 months ago
op, sorry. it sounds like you have a lot on your plate.
i meant with the glass. if you see the benefit to insulated glass, perhaps hold off on installing that until the job is done. i am doing a job now where the customer has asked me to switch the glass i originally quoted to something else (tempered restoration glass) and because of the cost of this and because tempered glass breaks easier than laminated, i am contemplating putting the laminated that i bid the job with in place and installing the tempered last, after the job is done. as a contractor, i do not want to break something as i am moving the door around and dealing with other issues in the doorway. especially not something that costs more and takes time to order.
if the contractor says something about installing tempered glass, be aware that it is a legitimate concern.
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
thanks, I’ll keep it in mind.
jimhillra | 3 years and 2 months ago
The NYC Energy Conservation Code is updated every few years, and each iteration gets stricter than the one before. All exterior components are regulated. Existing buildings are exempt only as far as existing conditions are concerned. If you replace a door, the new door is required to meet the current standards. It even goes so far as to say that one opaque (no glazing) door which is less than 24 sq ft in size is exempt from certain requirements, but all other doors are subject to the code requirements.
https://on.nyc.gov/3Ki1CjF
Guest User | 3 years and 2 months ago
thank you! Good to know where we stand.
stevecym | 3 years and 2 months ago
Do they really check? We use unlabled safety glass all the time on the assumption that the dob might make us change it. Never has happen.