Renting out a cellar as part of a duplex

This may be a tad overly cautious in residential and you may not even have a c of o. I don’t have one on my property. But coming from commercial, i know that we could not use a floor contrary to the c of o. If the cellar said boiler room and storage, it was for boiler room and storage. I just ran a bis check on a building i used to manage. The building was sold after i left and it underwent a major alteration. the use of certain spaces changed and they updated the c of o to reflect that.

Op is thinking like a business person. He is worried about liability, not the 100 dollar fine he might incur for a cost of doing business. He has to consider not only the c of o but what his insurance company will think of using this space as it is, possibly with no c of o, and even more so if the c of o says boiler and laundry. Some of what we see in these spaces may be contrary to the c of o and law, but the city turns a blind eye.

Liability is above and beyond the law. Liabilty occurs when a lawyer can make a case and say someone was negligent. Op does not want to give the insurance company an out should something go wrong. Suppose the boiler is between the ping pong table and the stairs and there is a fire where the boiler is (i know, boilers are on the wall opposite the stairs).

I go through this with employees all the time and some people do not understand that it is not enough to say we did not know it could go wrong (like we do with a cop at a traffic stop) as a business owner or landlord, we have to be sure it cannot go wrong. I have to tell employees it is not worth the chance when a million dollars could be at risk. A hundred dollar fine is different.

I could be wrong about all of this but i would set what the others say aside for now and would keep doing research. I would also speak to an insurance agent and ask some what-if questions.

The learning experience will be good for all of us if someone makes a few calls.

andriywww1990

in General Discussion 2 years and 11 months ago

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oliver111222 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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I’m considering an offer on a two-family building.

The ground floor is currently structured as a duplex. First floor at ground level, second floor is a cellar.

I’m trying to understand if I could ever rent the full duplex out, and am getting conflicting information.
This source: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/bldgs_bulletins/bb_2012-008.pdf states that cellars can be an accessory to a residential unit.

However, this one: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/basement-and-cellar.page states “Cellars in one-and two-family homes can never be lawfully rented. ”

Does anyone know if the second source means I can’t rent out the full duplex, or does it just mean I can’t rent out *just* the cellar as its own unit (which I have no intention of doing anyway)?

andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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The basement can be used as living space. The basement is anything partially below grade at the curb but not more than 50% below grade. The cellar is 50% or more below grade and can not be used as living space (not a bedroom, livingroom, kitchen). I have worked in plenty of houses and the only thing i have seen in cellars are washers, dryers, boilers, and storage. Occassionally a workbench and some tools.

This very same question was asked on here a few months back, perhaps 3 or 4 months.

chemosphere | 2 years and 11 months ago

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the second source is misleading. They mean to say “can never be lawfully rented as an apartment separate from upstairs unit”.
The cellar can be duplexed and used as “recreational space”. Also I believe the notion that a cellar can’t be a living room is not right – if your idea of a living room is a space with a couch and a tv, that can be in the cellar. NYC idiotically prohibits “living space” and has language like “no living” but does not prohibit a couch or a tv.
You can’t have a kitchen or bedroom in a cellar.
The bathroom situation is fuzzier – you can have a powder room, but a three piece bathroom requires a restrictive declaration. see here https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/bldgs_bulletins/bb_2011-010.pdf

andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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They wanted bedroom space to have a window to the outside. Hence the shafts in the middle of tenements. If there is no window to the outside (not to another room), it can not be used for sleeping. Add to it the issue some others raise, can a large person fit out a cellar window in a fire?

cate | 2 years and 11 months ago

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The cellar can legally be included in the rental of an above-grade unit, but I would not count on much use of the cellar beyond a workshop and laundry. Maybe you have a cellar with outside egress front and back, but really water- and damp-proofing a cellar is costly and kind of impossible.

housepoor | 2 years and 11 months ago

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While most cellars are below basements, I have a building that has no basement but does have a cellar. The cellar is 50% above grade. But it cannot be converted to a (livable) basement because the zoning does not allow for it (not enough FAR, I guess). It is an all-or-none proposition – you cannot, I understand, convert part of the cellar should you have some FAR left. However it can be finished & incorporated (into the space above) as storage space or maybe a rec room – just not living space (e.g. kitchen or bedrooms). If you want to rent the combined space out, it will certainly add value to a rental.

andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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Mine is technically a cellar even though we have no basement. Our celler is like 80% below grade at the curb. But in the back of the house, which was built into a slope, the cellar opens up into the yard like any other floor at grade; full height doors. Its still a cellar.

Add confusion to this are those things called english basements or garden apartments. They are really basements. The realtors gave them these fancy names to make it easier to market these to people who don’t like the idea of putting bedrooms in a basement.

chemosphere | 2 years and 11 months ago

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I don’t get the “you can’t use it for anything except laundry” chorus here. Of the top of my head, home office (big deal in the Covid era), kid’s play room, home theater, music studio, sauna, or how about a bar, a classic Brooklyn use in 1000s of cellars since time began. And by the way, our illustrious mayor sleeps in his. https://nypost.com/2021/06/09/eric-adams-shows-off-nyc-home-after-suggestion-that-he-lives-in-nj/

oliver111222 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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@cate, this cellar is nicely finished — hardwood floors, etc.. so it can definitely be used for much more — just not sure about what it can be used for legally.

oliver111222 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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@doorsbythetinkerwagon, I’ve seen a number of bedrooms, living rooms, etc. in cellars (rather than legal basements). My question is more about risk/liability.

I don’t plan on renting it out as a unit, but looking at the penalties for using it as a living space (e.g. living room) they seem pretty light. I think I’ll go ahead and just never market it as a bedroom or other living space, but call it a bonus room or similar.

andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago

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That wording on one of the links ends with “primary”. That leaves a lot to the imagination. It cannot be used for a bedroom and eating.

I would worry about giving the insurance company an out if someone gets injured and it is used contrary to the c of o.

I really am not qualified to say more.

shahnandersen

in General Discussion 2 years and 11 months ago

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Chemosphere is correct. Ignore the other comments. You can rent this out as a duplex as long as all sleeping and cooking areas are on the upper level. The lower level can be used for a rec room , a home office ,etc, and can be fully finished.