Renovation Stage 3 - exterior door, fireplace mantel

After several years of looking for existing doors and mantles we are now looking to find a good carpentar reasonably priced to make a new set of double exterior doors for the front of our house and 1, possibly 2, simple fireplace mantles. All ideas welcomed! thank you Becky

becky722

in General Discussion 6 years ago

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Guest User | 6 years ago

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Thank you, I’ll try and call you later today.

stevecym | 6 years ago

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and one other thing about salvage doors and this might help a lot of people:

we are cautious about using doors too big as we cannot take too much off without compromising the door in several ways (oak or mahogany edges will be lost or strength). but if a pair of doors has to be rebuilt anyway and the customer is prepared for that expense, it might very well work to buy doors too SMALL (counter intuitive, right?). it is sometimes easier to enlarge a pair of doors during a rebuild than cut them down too much and if the doors are oak or mahogany faced, the alteration will be hidden and will all be done with modern maritime epoxies. this assumes that both sides of oak or mahogany facing are being replaced. and we can enlarge glass space. all still less than a new pair of doors. and they can in some ways be improved; made thicker and added joints so they do not sag like the old ones might have.

I hope this is helpful.

jane, sorry to hear about that situation.

steve

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Thanks so much Steve, the contractor built my doors from scratch. They weren’t salvage doors. so now he wants to build out the molding to ensure these doors fit as they are not wide enough for the correct location. And i don’t want to do that for a few different reasons. I was either going to get new ones built or go salvage as I already spent a lot on new doors. Hope that clarifies.

stevecym | 6 years ago

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Jane, i am actually writing to you as you are replying. i know that they were new custom doors. i just addressed you in there as i knew you would see it. yes, i was thinking of mentioning other tricks which might be doable and still look as though they belong. sounds like you have considered them though.

stevecym | 6 years ago

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this contractor is going to open up a little more. now please, there are people who don’t like that i come on here and make too many posts. but i read what people say and then think, sometimes as i sand a piece of wood. to me, what i am about to admit should be appreciated by those looking at salvage doors.

here is the issue with getting a guy like me to want to do salvage doors. if anyone has not learned anything from i have said, they should have learned that there are contractors who feel an absolute responsibility to the job at hand. for a customer to want to use salvage doors, some contractors might feel that it is their (the contractor’s) responsibility to run around and approve the purchase of such doors before the customer buys them in case something goes wrong (is wrong to put this on a customer). this means a lot of time back and forth to the house, into Demo Depot or wherever, and maybe back to the house quite possibly for a job that may not proceed because the available doors might not work. Even if a customer wishes to reimburse the contracto r for leg work in the event the job does not move forward, the contractor may not be willing to take that money as he or she has other commitments to others who are paying a fair price for their work and sometimes it feels unfair to sell oneself out that way while others are waiting in line. Some contractors do not like taking money to provide estimates and that is what it becomes.

really, the only time i have spent discussing salvage doors with anyone is when they call and say they already have a pair that came from a house “down the street” or they know them to be the same size because they are on site. in so far as the problems with old doors, all the doors used in the city are all alike; you have seen one distressed 1890’s door, you have seen them all and just like a doctor would say about people, “they all look the same inside”.

and jane, you should shoot me an email about your situation. if people are frank with me and tell me they may not proceed with something or might not even want to use me for what ever reason or just want ideas, i will talk with them or send them to someone who knows better than I.

sorry to those who don’t like my excessive posts, but if i can give readers a bit of insight into what contractor’s think, it might make the experience of sourcing and working with a contractor a little smoother.

now back to the wood.

steve
www.thetinkerswagon.com

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Thank you and I trust Steve’s advice completely. Yes the headache is to be absolutely avoided. I’ve already been through that route in some other areas and know well that it’s not worth it. I had new doors made then the contractor messed up by not following drawings and not installing them in the correct location. Now these doors (which sadly are nice doors) don’t fit in the right location. That’s why I’m in a pickle right now. Yes the contractor should fix it but how many contractors willingly would do that.

stevecym | 6 years ago

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urbanded states it as well as i can and i rebuild doors for a living.

steve
www.thetinkerswagon.com

hkapstein | 6 years ago

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I don’t know, Steve can you think of anyone who might work on salvage doors?

Actually though, I’d think twice about salvage doors. Per steve, you can get new doors done in the 10-15k range, but they’ll have some advantages.

-Correct historical door design for your home.
-Stave core construction with modern glues vs mystery construction.
-Not neccessary to cut door down or alter jamb to fit.

Now if you pay someone to restore the doors, you’re probably looking at 5-7k, plus maybe you pay 2k for salvage doors? If anything goes wrong you’re probably losing money. Is it possible that you find doors that our a perfect match for your house, fit the jamb properly, and they’re free? Yes it is possible. I’m sure someone will post about how they pulled a door out of the east river and it fit great and the lock even matched their old key. But in general you’re probably in for a headache.

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Becky, here is the info M&F woodworkers – Fuster (347) 659-9081. Does anyone know a carpenter who can take salvage doors and install them? I know Santos on this thread but any other names to recommend?

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Becky it’s been a while so I need to search for his info.

lcrivolitorino | 6 years ago

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Hi I make custom doors, Lombardi Carpentry 516-322-9060 [IMG_17211](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:S0mU:img_17211.jpg.jpg) [IMG_17251](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:ZUpY:img_17251.jpg.jpg) [IMG_17361](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:M0mD:img_17361.jpg.jpg)

cate | 6 years ago

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FWIW that mantel looks late 20th century not 19th century and the other two photos are unrelated.

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Hi Becky
May I have your email ?
Thanks

Guest User | 6 years ago

string(1) "3"
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Hi Becky
May I have your email ?
Thanks

becky722 | 6 years ago

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hi Matt, yes please do send dimensions if you would

Guest User | 6 years ago

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Fire place mantel
I have white Carrara marble fire place for sale . Let me know if you are interested. I can also email you picture with dimensions [88CA638F-6D9F-46A7-AF4E-52F369F85210](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:21u9:88ca638f6d9f46a7af4e52f369f85210.png.jpg) [127E416F-3537-41BA-9B7D-4A464E4F9468](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:KSvW:127e416f353741ba9b7d4a464e4f9468.jpeg.jpg) [62894BF7-EF0D-4383-A81D-CC9C61774611](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:MTog:62894bf7ef0d4383a81dcc9c61774611.jpeg.jpg)

Guest User | 6 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195744"

Fire place mantel
I have white Carrara marble fire place for sale . Let me know if you are interested. I can also email you picture with dimensions [88CA638F-6D9F-46A7-AF4E-52F369F85210](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:21u9:88ca638f6d9f46a7af4e52f369f85210.png.jpg) [127E416F-3537-41BA-9B7D-4A464E4F9468](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:KSvW:127e416f353741ba9b7d4a464e4f9468.jpeg.jpg) [62894BF7-EF0D-4383-A81D-CC9C61774611](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:MTog:62894bf7ef0d4383a81dcc9c61774611.jpeg.jpg)

stevecym | 6 years ago

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hey thanks for that plug urbanded. i was going to come on here and recommend South Slope and Heights as makers. i deliberately commented above without saying that i make doors as i have been very happy doing restoration work, thank you. every so often i do make a pair if i feel i want a change.

Here are the periods for the door construction of the doors used in the city:

solid wood stiles and rails with thru tenons appear to be prevalent until about 1870. very much so pre civil war. i am not sure why these never bent and still do not bend and only suspect that the manufacturers knew the cut of wood to use (listen, certain cuts of wood from a log were the best but they were pricey as they wasted the other wood to scrap).

In the early brownstone period they began gluing up two pieces of wood, with the grain on each piece opposed to one another so they worked against each other. doors made like this appear stable. they are often screwed together so there is less chance of simple glue failure and the old glues appear brittle. i have a pair in m y shop now that were make this way. Pine doors were often made this way (and were made to be painted). i have not seen any early oak or mahogany doors made this way and in truth, an oak door made this way would weigh like 250 lbs, which is a lot. i have made doors this way with no issues and would still do so. if i were making pine doors i would rather make them this way as i see no point to pine-face a glued up pine core door.

i cannot pin the date but at some point we began seeing a lot of “oak” or mahogany doors. it begins in Park Slop around 8th ave and heads down into crown heights and on into bushwick. these doors, even though they were made in the 1890’s, were glued up pine staves with an oak or mahogany edges and facing applied to them. it is the safest way to make a door and firms still do this today. the core are made of 1.5″ (roughly) strips of pine lain on edge and glued up. these doors never bend. they are also lighter than say a solid oak door.

for those who like history, for me, it is great when i remove the facing on the doors and find the makers notes and measurements written on the staves.

The big change came about 1920 when they developed modern high speed machines and instead of putting interior doors together with dowels and exterior together with staves and blind tenons, SOME manufacturers began cutting the decorative joint we see along the panels (formerly panel molding) on doors into the structure of the door and using it as a glue joint, assembling the doors around the panels or even glass. they did this using solid pieces of wood and most of this i see in Westchester and with replacement units installed in ’40’s or 50’s elsewhere. these are the doors that sometimes bend. i suspect the manufacturers knew what can happen but figured the humidity was balanced on both sides of a door prior to modern air conditioning (yes they had dry heat inside but the winter air is generally dry as well) . We have had to rebuild several doors made this way and the issue develops in the summer when the a/c is on and often after someone installs central air. by 1960, it seems that manufacturers realized the a/c would be a problem and went back to the stave core.

Sometimes went i write i go into the back story or history of things, a little too much; the history of door making and the problems that come with changes are a perfect example of why it is important for trades and crafts people to know the history; that is how we learn from the mistakes of others. (adhesives are the other big changes but i am not going into that here).

sorry for those who do not like my long posts, but urbanded unbanded me. thanks urbanded.

steve cymbalsky
www.thetinkerswagon.com

hkapstein | 6 years ago

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Probably the two shops Cate is talking about are heights woodworking and southside.workshop. Both are competent to make doors. southside is a little more competitive on price. My recommendation goes to southside for an extreme amount of expertise on landmark doors, and a generally pleasant and efficient experience. There’s an article on brownstoner that quotes the owners of both shops and gives a sense of pricing. If you speak to Nate at southside, tell him Brent Hull’s buddy sent you.

I believe Steve Cymbalsky is capable of this work, but I don’t know if he does this or limits his practice to restoration. Definitely a guy who knows a whole lot about doors. However I don’t agree with him that solid mortise and tenon doors cannot be used due to air conditioning. It’s a challenge, but any time you see original doors, that is probably what they are since stave core was not typically used on exterior doors in the 19th century due to glue limitations, and I’m sure he knows that.

There are few other shops I can think of, but I’ll leave it at that for now.