Permits for a 2-fam / No CofO? CofO Required?
Yes, sometimes we’ve been able to get away with keeping the existing central hall sprinklers under certain circumstances.
jimhillra
in General Discussion 6 years and 9 months ago
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soundhoner | 6 years and 10 months ago
Hello,
I have a two-family in Brooklyn that has no CofO or I-card on record. It’s three stories, with the bottom two floors duplexed (but loosely so, previous owner installed a lock on a bedroom in a parlor floor hallway that may make things look like a 3). Taxed as a 2 with 2 elec and gas meters. A contractor I’m thinking about going with is saying that if we go with permiting for renovating one of the apartments, that there’s a strong chance I’ll be asked to get a C of O so he can close out the permit. Is that true?
He also said that nowadays, even two-family dwellings are being asked to install sprinkler systems. Is that true too? There’s several years’ worth of Brownstoner forum messages saying otherwise — have times changed?
resident2 | 6 years and 10 months ago
What are you planning on doing in the one apartment?
If you are not completely re-configuring the space you probably do not need a permit.
But even if you did technically need a permit, I would as your contractor has said consider very hard if it is worth all the possible additional work and Pandora’s box of unknowns with the DOB these days.
soundhoner | 6 years and 10 months ago
Is it worse today than, say 1 or 2 years ago? 4 years ago?
I’m looking to move just one wall in one apartment and a few walls in the other. But if I have to get permits, I might just expand that scope of work. If the DOB is going to make me get a CofO then maybe I’ll go no permits and reduce my scope of work.
That’s the crux of the decision-point…
mozeeatupu | 6 years and 10 months ago
How old is the property? You might just get a letter of no objection from DOB.
If you’re moving walls you need permits.
jimhillra | 6 years and 9 months ago
In existing buildings, when there’s no change to the existing C of O or application for a new one, sprinklers are required if the cost of construction exceeds 60% of the value of the building, which is determined by a calculation based upon the Dept of Finance assessment.
randolph | 6 years and 9 months ago
> @jimhillra
> sprinklers are required if the cost of construction exceeds 60% of the value of the building
what is the logic behind this? sprinklers are for fire safety, why should the cost of construction determine if they are required.
when we did our renovation i was told we needed sprinklers because we are an attached wood frame on a street less that 38′ wide meaning if someone was double parked a fire truck could not get through. or something like that. but i certainly was never told that the cost of renovation had anything to so with it.
to my mind this sort of rule just encourages people to misrepresent their project to keep the cost on the documentation down which also will ultimately keep your tax increase down as well.
soundhoner | 6 years and 9 months ago
To answer the question above, the house is from 189x. It’s taxed as a 2, no C/O or I-Card on file . It’s brick, though, unlike randolph’s renovation. Let me summarize by saying, I’d prefer to do it all via permits, because that also protects me in case of a future situation with insurance if something happens.
On the other hand – if there’s a risk I have to suddenly get sprinklers and other nonsense I’ll do a cheaper/less extensive renovation.
I do plan to add an extension, though, if I can.
The architect I plan to go with doesn’t seem to think sprinklers are required, but I like to see people’s personal experiences here.
jimhillra | 6 years and 9 months ago
@Randolph what is the logic behind this? sprinklers are for fire safety, why should the cost of construction determine if they are required.
Much of the code is written with the idea that existing buildings may not meet the current code. The DOB would like all buildings to comply with the current code, but they understand that it would be a hardship for every renovation to require that the building be brought up to current code, so they came up with the budget as a means of distinguishing which renovations need to incorporate which sections of the code. Sprinklers is 60%, but other sections go by other %’s. If you have a 4 or more families, the threshold goes down to 50%. There’s even a consideration for what happens if your budget is between 30% – 60% of the building value, in which case the altered parts of the building are supposed to comply with the new sprinkler code.
The justification is that when you’re renovating an existing brownstone for example, that Dept of Finance value may be $1.5M. 60% of that is $900k. Let’s assume sprinklers will add $75k to t hat. $75k is only 8.3% of the construction budget, so it’s not as big a deal in a major renovation as it would be in say a $100k renovation.
If you buy into this line of reasoning, they’re actually trying to ease the pain by waiving the sprinklers in smaller renovations.
The 38′ street width you mention is FDNY code, not DOB. And just because you renovate a home on a street less than 38′ wide, you do not have to sprinkler. That’s the first checkbox. If you tick off that one, then you look at the others, one of which is the 60%. Others are change of use, increase floor area by more than 125%, change in height from below 35′ to above 35′, and change in # of families. If you tick off one of those checkboxes in addition to being on a narrow street, then you need sprinklers. Do any of these apply to your renovation?
The 2014 DOB code has similar requirements, based upon the FDNY requirements above. Both are applicable, and usually the more stringent one applies.
randolph | 6 years and 9 months ago
my house already had a sprinkler system because it used to be a SRO. they allowed us to refurbish it so the cost was much less than starting from scratch but that said i would have removed it if they let me.