Next door neighbor hauling dirt from basement. Should I be concerned?
Our next door neighbors started hauling buckets of dirt from their basement yesterday. They’re doing a gut / near gut. We share a wall with them. Should I be concerned? We just texted them asking if they’re digging down, and they said they’re “only taking out the floor concrete and putting in new concrete.” They had 2 guys hauling dirt out for about 8 hours yesterday and are continuing today. How much dirt would they need to remove to level a basement? Do they need an earth removal permit to level the concrete anyway? What action should I take? I don’t want to call DOB on them if what they’re doing is legit and of no concern, but I don’t know how to really determine that. We will have to live next door to them, so I’m trying to be as neighborly as possible without sacrificing our safety and investment.
ps158
in General Discussion 6 years and 3 months ago
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fiordiligi | 6 years and 3 months ago
@ 2345bcde: You can’t really distinguish between “your neighbor planning to live in the house” and a developer. In my case, I was dealing with the former, who was simply a scofflaw trying to save money and blithely ignorant of the Code and the case law; he had also managed to find a cheap architect/contractor as ignorant as he. And both were convinced that even if they HAD violated something (though they were both sure they hadn’t), the Code and the case law didn’t apply to them. DOB kept insisting that whether or not there were plans on file, there was nothing it could do until my house was actually damaged, since it had granted the neighbor a permit. The neighbor was only persuaded to hire an atty when mine made clear that we were going to court to get an immediate TRO (temporary restraining order.) DOB can work in mysterious ways. A competent construction atty won’t.
fiordiligi | 6 years and 3 months ago
Also, once you do get into the plans, permits and files, it may or may not be helpful to go to one of the free weekly “homeowner’s nights” at DOB. You can sit down with a plan examiner there, and ask questions about the project. In my case, the plan examiner verified that there were in fact no plans on file (which I’d already told him but he initially didn’t believe) – despite the fact that DOB had already granted the neighbor a permit. The examiner then called more senior plan examiners over to his cubby and asked if he was missing something. They dug around in more computers and found nothing. Finally a very senior examiner asked if I had a good construction attorney. And when I said yes, this gent replied, “That’s good, you’re gonna need one.” He was right. That construction atty was the best investment I ever made; my house is still standing. and undamaged.
2345bcde | 6 years and 3 months ago
If your neighbor is planning on living in the house or you have a relationship with your neighbor talking to them is great. If it is a developer then expect to be lied to. I have been dealing with someone buying the house next door and building a huge unpermited addition, having a stop work order placed on the house and now having squatters breaking into the house. Any work that is done will not be taken down and any damage done to your home will not be fixed. If you don’t believe what i’ve said I encourage you to go to the DOB on Tuesday nights 3-7 and ask for yourself. Anyone who suspects their neighbor is doing serious unpermitted work to their home is crazy not to report them immediately.
yudashasom | 6 years and 3 months ago
@smoney, spot on.
before you start digging through plans, permits and files. ask your neighbor to see what they are doing.
fiordiligi | 6 years and 3 months ago
If an adjacent neighbor is underpinning, under the Building Code and relevant case law, they are required to contact you to negotiate a party wall license agreement (because they need access to your property to measure the depth of your basement and the thickness of the party wall, in order to draft adequate underpinning plans), and to have adequate plans filed with DOB for that underpinning, as well as insurance to cover damage to adjacent properties. But DOB doesn’t bother to advise adjacent neighbors of their rights; nor does it bother to check whether the excavating party has gotten those license agreements, which a competent construction atty representing an adjacent neighbor will negotiate to entitle their client to have monitors placed at the excavator’s expense, have their own engineer review the plans for safety, regulate the permitted hours of excavation, and be sure that the excavator carries adequate insurance in case something goes wrong. DOB just takes the position that it “trusts the developer to do the right thing.” (!) And then after the fact, if th ere’s a problem, DOB will tell you to sue the developer as it’s a “civil matter.” Another major problem in underpinning cases is that DOB checks for mandated aggregate insurance levels on an excavator’s policy, but only reviews the certificate; and it doesn’t review policies for exclusions that aren’t permitted by the Building Code and case law. The main one is an earth movement exclusion, which is very common….and insurance companies are adding more exclusions to excavators’ policies all the time. As a homeowner, it’s impossible for you to get earth movement insurance through a homeowner’s policy; and if it’s excluded on the excavator’s policy, it doesn’t matter if you’re an added insured….your damage still won’t be covered.
Again, if underpinning is involved (which can be particularly hazardous with rubble wall foundations) you will absolutely need a specialized construction atty and an engineer (most attys specializing in this work have specific engineers they prefer to work with) representing you to negotiate the license agreement and make sure your house isn’t damaged. The Code and case law are just too turgid for a lay person to be able to do it themselves…having been through one of these, I know whereof I speak.
Also, DOB has an Excavation Unit, which can be useful in case of emergencies (no matter what the permit has been issued for, and especially if there’s no permit for whatever is going on). Here’s the procedure: Call 311, ask for a DOB specialist, and (very important) state that your building is shaking (or walls are cracking, or whatever is the case), and be sure to use the code words “excavation” and “property damage.” That will cause the DOB specialist to notify the Excavation Unit to report to the site immediately. If you don’t use those specific words, the inspectors will most likely drive by the property at some future date, and if no damage is visible from the street, they will leave without further inspection. Also, be sure to get a complaint number from 311, so you can track your complaint on the DOB website.
Smokychimp | 6 years and 3 months ago
If the concrete pour for the new slab is under 50 cubic yards, which would be the case for an ordinary townhouse, you don’t need a separate permit for the concrete. And you don’t need a separate permit to excavate down to the level of the footings.
It sounds like they are doing everything legit and by the book. What’s the basis for your worry? The answer to your question “should I be concerned” seems to be — no.
murph | 6 years and 3 months ago
Take a trip to your boro DoB and ask for the permits and documents on file but only if you want your house to be standing without a cracked facade or foundation wall at some point in the future after the current owner/builder has disappeared into the ether.
Insist they place monitors across the adjoining walls, front and back, to measure any subsidence. Take pix.
astoriahomeowner
in General Discussion 6 years and 3 months ago
Definitely call the DOB if you’re concerned by other details you may have left out. However, simply hauling dirt out of the basement is common when re-doing the cellar. Your main concern should be if they decide to dig below the footing of the building. That requires underpinning and requires an engineer etc to make sure everything is structurally sound, and being done correctly.
2345bcde | 6 years and 3 months ago
The permits should say exactly what they’re allowed to do. It should say what the permits are for on the DOB site. Often they’ll get a permit for some minor work ( they’re easier and cheaper to get ) & then do whatever they want. It’s best to call and allow the DOB to come over and check ( that’s their job ).
ps158 | 6 years and 3 months ago
OK thank you this is extremely helpful. They do have permits – I searched on the DOB site and see them posted on the front of the house (though I haven’t actually looked at the printed permits up close – I’ll do that tonight). I wasn’t able to see anything on DOB for permits referencing excavation or concrete pour. I did however see the box checked “no” where it says something about concrete work on DOB…
So you’re saying the permits for this kind of work SHOULD reflect excavation of basement and/or concrete pour, even if they’re just “making the floor flat and not digging down.”
Their engineer is based primarily in Pennsylvania from what I can tell, though he has an office space in Brooklyn. He also self-certified project, which makes me a bit more cautious about how their work. Not to mention they’ve done a couple of things over the last few months that make me not trust them entirely.
Lurker | 6 years and 3 months ago
If they’re doing a gut or near gut then is it a permitted job? If so then that’s good and they would need this vetted—you can see on their window permit something like excavation of basement with new pour concrete etc. If not, then it’s more of a concern. Maybe they got an engineer to okay it, maybe not, but ask them, and start from a position of openness–hey I don’t want to be nosy but I know of stories where buildings collapse from these kinds of thing so I just want to make sure an expert is involved in the process. Let them answer, if they say yes say oh great can you share the details just so I know what to expect and so I can keep an eye on things on my end. If they say the contractor does this all the time and assured me it’ll all be fine don’t worry, then I’d say, whoa I’m uncomfortable. I know it’s a hassle but I need you to stop work now and go through this with me. You need to have an engineer or architect sign off on this or your insurance won’t cover it and I’m not prepared to lose everything.
This isn’t putting in a new wall or deck, the stakes are too high to mess around. But don’t start on the front foot and be aggressive.
2345bcde | 6 years and 3 months ago
Call 311 and say they are excavating in the basement and you’re afraid the foundation is being compromised. Make sure you say you’re concerned about the stability of the foundation or the DOB will not come for weeks. Do yourself a favor and call immediately.