need alt-1 if removing kitchen from 2-family house?
Deva – 2 fam houses used as a 1 fam are sold regularly, no one seems to ever get a problem with financing. And of course the city does not get involved with home sales. I was looking at changing 2-fam to a 1-fam (get rid of extra meters, just be a good citizen) and an expediter told me it would be $$$ and a lot of time and headache. He thought I was crazy just for considering it since I wasn’t doing a big reno.
dorkofwindsor
in General Discussion 4 years and 8 months ago
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Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
We are in contract for a 2-family house that has been lived in as a 1-family (no division between units), although there are 2 partial kitchens. We want to treat it as a 1-family. An architect has told us that if we want to avoid an alt-1 we have to have 2 kitchens and a locked door between units. Otherwise we need to do an alt-1 with all its complications. Is this true?
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
in short, yes. if the house is a 2-family according to its DOB records and you take out the key components that would allow it to be used as a 2-family (second kitchen, private entry, etc.) it would be considered a change-of-use which would require the alt-1 filing. there’s been back-and-forth on this board before about the merits of maintaining 2-family versus changing to 1-family so i won’t comment on that. your architect is right, but they also need to provide you with an explanation of what they would anticipate the different construction and filing costs to be for doing it either way so you can make an informed decision.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
in short, yes. if the house is a 2-family according to its DOB records and you take out the key components that would allow it to be used as a 2-family (second kitchen, private entry, etc.) it would be considered a change-of-use which would require the alt-1 filing. there’s been back-and-forth on this board before about the merits of maintaining 2-family versus changing to 1-family so i won’t comment on that. your architect is right, but they also need to provide you with an explanation of what they would anticipate the different construction and filing costs to be for doing it either way so you can make an informed decision.
allyslope | 4 years and 9 months ago
Does the architect or anyone know if there are any restate tax benefits to convert from 2 to 1 family? Restate tax benefits long term vs cost (contractor, architect, filing etc.) to convert
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Thanks, Maggie. The house is currently set up as a 1-family (no door separating units) and since we want to redo the stairs to bring them up to code there would be no way to add such a door. So we seem to be stuck with an Alt-1. I have heard that with an Alt-1 one needs to have a “site safety super” come by each day at great expense to check on work safety, but I hope that maybe that won’t be necessary for a 1-family. I have asked the architect but haven’t heard back. I am not sure there are tax advantages; I think I have heard both that there are and that there used to be but are no longer.
yudashasom | 4 years and 9 months ago
AFAIK any change, and your cap on taxes is removed. Taxes only go one direction.
Why go through all the nonsense Ithaca? Make the interior changes to a 1 fam, leave it as a legal 2 family. Better for resale, more options for the future, taxes stay where they are with low increases.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
The architect told us we can’t do that: that to leave it as a 2 family we would need 2 kitchens plus a lockable door between the units. We could conceivably put in a small kitchen and take it out later, but there is no place where we could put such a door. I don’t see a solution other than reluctantly accepting an alt-1.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Unless maybe we could put a lock on the door separating the master bedroom and bath from the rest of the house, and stick a kitchenette in there. Might that work?
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
I wasn’t thinking. Of course that wouldn’t work because one would have to go through the first unit to get to the second.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
If you have a two-family house and you wish to remove a kitchen, as far as I know no permits are needed and no change of C of O is required. (Going the other direction, adding a unit, is another story and definitely requires permits.) I guess if you are doing a legal, permitted alt-2 renovation and removing a locked door between units as part of that renovation, I guess possibly the DOB might object? But there is no division between the units now and you are not changing anything, so I don’t see the issue. Be aware there are scads of two-family houses in Brooklyn built 1890-1910 that were built originally as two-families and had no division between the units. (The configuration was a simplex over a duplex and both units had identical small bathrooms in a stack behind the staircase on the third and second floors — in other words, the duplex has an original bathroom on the parlor floor.) They don’t have C of Os but they are legal two families. Perhaps if you consult with a few more architects, you may get a different answer.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Yes, I think we need to talk to more architects. Thanks.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
Just to clarify: If you have one of these legal two-families built without a division between the units, you are in no way obligated to bring them up to current code .They are grandfathered in. For that matter, an old staircase does not need to conform to current code either and is also grandfathered in. (If, however, you do a massive renovation, this can trigger requirements to conform to contemporary code.)
jimhillra | 4 years and 9 months ago
Here’s another architect opining on the subject. It is my understanding that any condition in which there is no separation between two dwelling units is considered non-compliant, regardless of the age of the condition or number of dwelling units. If you do work that requires filing, then the unit in which the work is performed must be brought into compliance.
Things like stair width, which is a component of egress, are subject to code compliance no matter how old they are, but the rules differ when you’re talking about 1 & 2 family as opposed to 3 and up. In the first NYC building code (1938) 1 and 2 family residences “three stories or less above any basement in height and occupied by two families or less” are exempt from egress requirements, period. Keep in mind that’s basement, meaning garden level, not cellar.
The next code, 1968, changed that. This is why stairs and other egress components are not regulated in most 1 and 2 family homes predating the 1968 code. 3 and up are governed by the Multiple Dwelling Law, which does have minimum stair widths.
But ste p back a minute and look at the big picture. The difference between an Alt 1 and an Alt 2 is not that big, especially if going from 2 to 1. There are a few more forms to file. The architect needs to provide drawings for each floor (you’re already doing one, so it’s just the others where there is no work so they’re easy), very basic front and rear elevations, basic section, and a simple zoning analysis. If your house is code compliant, and it probably is for a 1 or 2 family under the 1938 code, then it’s just paperwork. Yes, it adds cost, but on the order of $5k, maybe $10k at the most.
Also, the site safety super is required based upon the scope of work. An Alt 1 like what you’re describing would not require one.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Thank you! That is reassuring. We are in favor of making things code compliant – in particular it is important for us not to have steep, narrow stairs, which would be more of a problem as we age. But the thought of throwing away money for a site safety super was very disagreeable.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
To preserve the character and value of a 19th century townhouse in Brooklyn, one time-tested approach is keep the original stairs, moldings, doors and other details while updating the mechanicals and wet rooms. There is no obligation to update stairs and other features to conform to modern code in a single-family or two-family private house in Brooklyn. As well, there are many other ways to address aging in place. As for more extensive renovations, there are clever ways to “open up” a historic space and install rear walls of windows and great rooms, or to maximize the width of a narrow house, with subtle interventions that work harmoniously with and are not at odds with the original architecture.
kms_bkyn | 4 years and 9 months ago
We live in a house that is taxed as a two family (and was a two family for a long time) but used as a one family. When we filed a job doing work on both the first and second floor, there were objections because it didn’t look like a two family. The DOB didn’t care that the DOF has called it a 2 family for over 100 years. We also have a few friends who have changed their C of O from 2 or 3 family to 1 family and their property taxes went up about 600%.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Was it the DOB thated object that it did not look like a 2-family? Did you get the permits or not?
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
I thought I had responded to Cate but I guess I did not hit the right buttons. The house in question is brick and well built with fairly high ceilings but other than that there is no character to preserve: no moldings, ugly slab doors, no trim. It is important to us to have safe, comfortable stairs. We did consider an elevator but that would eat a lot of space and still leave dangerous stairs.
allyslope | 4 years and 9 months ago
@kms_bkyn Interesting. Did they do a renovation and then the C of O change. My understanding is when you do a reno there is no limit as to how much the taxes can go up.