Moving a kitchen

We’re thinking of moving the location of our Bed Stuy townhouse kitchen up from garden to parlor floor without moving the gas line. I.e. switching to all electric? Has anyone had experience doing this recently? How involved was this process?

jimyjames.robert96

in General Discussion 1 year and 3 months ago

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cate | 1 year and 2 months ago

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We’ve managed to do a decent amount of work without needing to pull an Alt-2 or Alt-1 because we haven’t moved walls, fixtures, etc. We use licensed plumbers and electricians and they pull the necessary permits for their work, but that’s not the same as an Alt-2 or Alt-1.

eg66 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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That’s a good point, Cate. I am a rule follower anyway, so will just suck it up when the time comes. I am hoping my current place has no permits because, simply, it has retained the original mechanicals/egress/layout for 90+ years.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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after reading (what i think cate said) about the city possibly using listing records or other historic data to determine the historic location of kitchens, i would move a little more carefully as well.

jimyjames.robert96 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Thank you! This is all very helpful.

mheimbinder | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Chiming in to agree with StudioHW and MDR – you really want an architect to help you through understanding the process and requirements. Though many things in the city get done “under the radar”, I have seen more than my share of homeowners ask for help in legalizing work before selling, or legalizing work done by a previous owner without the proper permits. And, while the DOB may be difficult to deal with, I try to remember (and remind them) that their ultimate purpose is to make sure that work conducted in the city is done to the minimum quality required for life safety purposes – and since we live so tightly together, that insures your safety when your neighbor has work done, as well as your own.

Stepping down off the soapbox, I would also agree with HomeInspector. Have an electrician come and take a look at your service, and tell you if any upgrades to your service are needed, to switch to an electric stove when you make the change. With that info in hand, bring in an architect to help you navigate the process (which can also include getting & evaluating bids for the construction). The fact is, the work not only needs to be filed, but ultimately, you WANT to have everything up to code (at minimum), especially when it comes to gas and electricity, for your own peace of mind.

And to answer your original question – How involved is the process? Relatively involved, but ultimately so much less worrisome (and so much more fulfilling!) to have it done the right way, with the right professionals going through the process with you. Good luck!

cate | 1 year and 2 months ago

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You don’t need a permit to replace an existing dishwasher. Re how the DOB would know, sometimes they wouldn’t know. If they don’t have the original blueprints or more recent records from permits, they might look at i-cards in old HPD records or floor plans in old real estate listings.

eg66 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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My naive question is this– in an old house where a permit has never been pulled, how does anyone ever know that things were changed around? So far we’ve done only surface, no-permit-needed stuff (uncovering old floors, replacing broken appliances without altering layouts). Except solar, that was permitted. But if I were to, say, swap the placement of a toilet and sink, who’s ever going to know what the original layout was? Btw, we did not get a permit to install a replacement dishwasher, we got it delivered and did it ourselves.

cate | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Replacing like with like (such as a new drain or new supply line, for example) in the same spot does not require an Alt-2.

chemosphere | 1 year and 2 months ago

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    string(19) "jg@jacobgarchik.com"
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on the other hand…I just had to replace my dishwasher. Bought it from Lowes online. They have installers for $250. Lowes called me after purchase and said in NYC installers charge an extra $100 for permits. A permit. To replace a dishwasher. of course this is nonsense. But contractors are allowed to set their own fees. Really they should just tell Lowes that the cost of installation is $350 in NYC.
I priced this out with my own plumber but in that case Lowes was going to charge me an additional $75 for delivery which would end up being the same…

jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Truth is… the DOB does not want to deal with these $30-50k renovations., or the $2-5k addition of a new gas line for a clothes dryer, or a couple of new 220v outlets in a “home theater room,” or X-X-X (name your appliance.)

They don’t have the staff to run this all down… and would rather spend precious hours going after large commercial projects.

These small projects are time wasters from the DOB standpoint and is 100% why they created the “self-certifying” system for minor alterations.

Home renovation is for most of us a never ending addition and subtraction of MINOR mechanical systems, piping, electric, carpentry, cement work., etc…

A home evolves over time.

Two out of three items that I HAVE filed for.. minor as they were… the DOB inspector never showed up and the tradesman post facto self-certified.

chemosphere | 1 year and 2 months ago

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I agree with HomeInspector’s approach…city is vague, there are too many requirements, two people will give you two answers, all the costs have skyrocketed and some of these things are needlessly complex, etc.

You need a permit to move a sink. What about to replace the water lines and drain for the sink in the same spot? What about moving it over 12″ because you slightly rearranged the cabinets or went with a wider stove? What about moving it 36″? Moving it 6′? There is so much wiggle room.

If you are worried about legality and maybe neighbors complaining but you don’t want to go full Alt 2 you can have the electrician pull permits just for electrical. Post it to the door. You can get the whole thing inspected at the end. The electrical inspector doesn’t know where the historical kitchen was.

cate | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Let us say you already have a full bathroom on the parlor floor in the little side room in the back. If you use licensed plumbers and a licensed electrician and put the sink in the same spot as the tub/shower, and use an electric stove, and don’t move any walls (the two doorways should be more than sufficient) you haven’t really actually moved any fixtures. But it’s a fine line and no doubt the DOB would say you ought to file an Alt-2.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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also, the electricians and even con ed rely on load calculations that will not make sense to laymen who have little more of understanding of electricity than what breakers and wires are needed for certain appliances. so if you do not have room in your service panel, an electrician might recommend installing a sub-panel. I do not know if they will do this without filing but it can be done. all of this can be done on top of con ed’s possibly undersized service wiring and i asked an electrician about how they get away with this and he told me this: “con ed has their own standard and rely on something entirely different than what electric code is based on. Basically, the wires in our houses can handle more current than the code and over-current devices (breakers) allow for, but the insurance companies are the ones who drove the creation of the codes and the ratings for household wiring”.

without knowing how many empty breaker slots are in this service panel and how many are already dedicated to the current kitchen (by dedicated, i mean are serving the kitchen only an d not half or all of the remaining floor as so often happens in older houses), I see the service panel as the most questionable point in this project but that does not mean there is not a legal work around (that does not involve a new service panel) and i would rely on a licensed trade such as an electrician to state what it is. don’t ask an HIC or home inspector. Definitely do not rely on a home improvement contractor who really wants the job and might make all sorts of rosy promises just to get the job or who is even willing to do the electric himself just to make the job easy for you.

Once you have a comment from the electrician, you can decide if you need an architect. The electrician will tell you if he can file if he thinks it necessary. Same for the plumber.

also, it is possible to do a small job like this without a GC. you just need a contractor willing to deal with and work around the other trades. in this case, because the r/o for the other work must be done before hanging cabinets, the other trades lead. (i used to hang cabinets).

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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The city has a brochure on doing kitchen and bath work but even it is poorly written and raises more questions than it does provide answers. It says an “alt-2″ must be filed for most kitchen and bath renovation including: moving gas lines, adding a bathroom, removing a load bearing wall, adding outlets”.

Op, looks like you will be having a licensed plumber remove and cap a gas line that was probably installed illegally decades ago. Hopefully you already realize that doing anything to a load bearing wall can be an issue, and adding electric outlets? Let the electrician make that judgement call and put it to him what he feels must be done to make such electric work legal. I never hear of anyone filing an alt-2 to add outlets and if people are supposed being that, then just about every house in this city is not in compliance. I see entire service panels changed and several circuits added by licensed electricians w/o filing. Wrong yes. But it is done all the time.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 2 months ago

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What makes a kitchen? A sink and stove. The city does not care about a bunch of cabinets. The city does not care about a tile or lino floor. The city does not know where half the kitchens were in these houses just four decades ago.
Have a plumber do the sink connection legally and have the electrician run some electric lines, legally. The city does not have to know what for ( i do not think they have to. How many wet bars do we see? How many 220 lines for window ac? Does the city know what is going on with these?). Have a person who does kitchens and baths deal with the cabinets, floors, etc. And sink hook up.

And remove the old kitchen. My GUESS is you will not get in trouble for moving a kitchen but for have a second kitchen in the basement as that begins to look like an apt.

Talk to chris lombardi. You can find him on this board.

xtinaillustration | 1 year and 2 months ago

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I’d definitely recommend working with an architect on this, as there is a lot to consider when moving and designing a kitchen. You will need to file with DOB – this does not triple the cost. There will be a filing cost, DOB fee, and some inspections required – but it’s a fraction of the overall cost, and not something you want to attempt after the fact as MDR pointed out. You might want to first talk to an electrician to confirm that you have adequate service for the cooktop etc and find out whether the electrical work will be significant.

MDR | 1 year and 2 months ago

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If you take 850mph’s advice, keep in mind that legalizing work after the fact is quite difficult. I worked with an owner that bought a house with violations for unpermitted work and it took us a year just to find a plumber to take responsibility for work that they didn’t perform. Walls and ceilings had to be opened up to inspect the plumbing and some of it had to be redone. No one wants to get involved with this when there is plenty of other work. Certainly, dealing with DOB is a pain and costs more but it would also give you peace of mind when all is done.

hschallh | 1 year and 2 months ago

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From my experience, changing the location of your kitchen and using all electric stuff instead of gas takes careful planning and the help of experts. It’s a big task but it’s something you can do. Doing this can make your home work better and increase its worth.

jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago

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Use the old Brooklyn Rule of Thumb when dealing with the DOB:

Get good advice on what would be code for the improvements….
Do what you want as per advice until someone formally complains…
Then go get an architect or engineer to file.

As soon as you involve the DOB, no matter how proactive, or how many dollars you have spent… any improvement will cost you 3x more in dollars, time and frustration.