Mini garden in front of brownstone - need permit?
Pouring concrete is in the code, and certain drainage requirements can apply depending on the amount of concrete and other factors, I think under a certain amount may be exempt. One has to do with how much you can drain into a combined building drain, ie not separate storm, and it’s a little tricky, but you can work it out. I had to do the calcs once to convince my plumber the drainage was code compliant for a patio, most LMPs are hesitant to do that. Removal wouldn’t have that issues, but probably would technically require a demo permit. That aid removal of a few hundred square feet of patio would very likely qualify as a minor alteration not affecting the health, safety, or fire code and therefore not require a permit. But it’s not about whether a permit is legally required, but whether you end up getting a stop work order, and what your backup plan is in that case. I would do not hesistate to remove cement from my areaway, but if someone had filed an areaway plan in 2005, I’d want to know that.
Now most areaways and stoops and areaway fences are in fact partly or tot ally on city property. Don’t believe me? Check your survey. At some point in was decided that these structures were grandfathered and allowed to remain without a formal revocable consent from the city, and no fees are charged on them like new stoops would be. But the city can and has ordered people to remove stoops for sidewalk projects. There is not adverse property claim available against city sidewalks, so even if you’ve been using it for 150 years, it doesn’t become yours. Weird but true.
hkapstein
in General Discussion 4 years and 3 months ago
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31 replies
cobblehillhome | 4 years and 3 months ago
Hi, our current brownstone has concrete in the front – I’d like to remove some of it to plant a garden. Does the concrete removal require a permit?
I found this: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/rules/1_RCNY_101-14.pdf however the rules of “nursery” don’t mention concrete removal!
(Ideally we’d like to do the work ourselves, so any advice on a project like this, welcomed, too. )
cobblehillhome | 4 years and 3 months ago
Forgot to add — we are NOT in a landmark district or house
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
Is the concrete shown on any records at DOB? If not, I think you’d be better off not filing for a permit, particularly if you can do the work yourself. For one thing, the areaway is partly on city property, so that could result it some headaches if things went sideways.
cobblehillhome | 4 years and 3 months ago
How would I check to see if it’s in any records at the DOB?
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
Request the folder, microfilm, and any digital plans from DOB.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
Urbandad, have you seen concrete on a microfilm? I haven’t so would love to know. Microfilm could lead to OP wasting weeks trying to get that info. It may be faster to call a sidewalk, masonry company, landscaping company or architect and they will tell you the rules. Even if you are doing this yourself, make a few calls and ask.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/lpc/downloads/pdf/LPCPermitGuidebook_Chapter8_Yards.pdf
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
JP I realized you said you aren’t Landmarks. Please disregard Chapter 8
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
Well you don’t to see it, the point would be to identify that it wasn’t there. It may be harder to get the microfilm than it used to be, but last time I was at DOB it was still there, unlike the folders that had to be pulled from storage. Now it’s a good idea to pull all this stuff anyway, make blowbacks of your microfilm, and high rest photos or scans of anything in your folder, so you’ll know what’s in there, so why not now?
It’s unlikely the records will show this area, but it’s possible they do. If there was a work filed, and the architect ordered a slab, it could be described. Chances are it is not unless it was important, plans before the 90s rarely have much detail.
Now even if it is filed, you can most likely get away with re hardscaping the areaway without a permit. But you’d have work that didn’t match DOB plans in an area that you can’t refuse inspection. Probably it’s okay, but you never know. No one 20 years ago expected the type of scrutiny we face now.
resident2 | 4 years and 3 months ago
If you are not in Landmark district, you can re-landscape your front yard in what ever way you like so long as your structures, plantings, drainage does not encroach on you neighbors or the sidewalk.
Do check your survey; hopefully you got a full survey when you bought your house? This will show where your property line is in the front of your house; although that said, it is highly unlikely that the City would rush out and give you a violation for anything that looks like it is in your front yard, even if you do not actually own your front yard, as per the survey. Just as you as an owner are expected to maintain the City owned sidewalk, you are expected to maintain the City owned front yard to your house.
I once lived on a block where the City owned all of the front halves of the front yards: I put in a new wrought iron fence, planted a tree and other shrubs, even excavated & made a pathway to my basement…. no problems, even sold the property to a NYC Planning department person… no issues.
JohnHancock | 4 years and 3 months ago
Just do it, it’s your front garden. Enjoy life
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
I am with John, don’t go down rabbit holes. I don’t know if breaking up concrete requires a permit so make sure. While everyone wants to help, not everything posted is accurate. Last thing you want is someone calling DOB as they were irritated by the noise or have nothing better to do. Due diligence is safe rather than being sorry.
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
I agree the solution is almost certainly to “just do it” but you might want to know what you’re getting into before you start. You can absolutely change your landscaping, but technically you probably can’t change your hardscaping without a permit. Jackhamering it out could get some attention. I think commonly it’s done when there’s another permit open anyway so if someone sees that jackhammer, they will see you have a permit.
What you have to think about is that once DOB gets involved, they can make up all kinds of requirements. They used to say in brooklyn that everything is legal until someone complains. We used to have conversations like this about 2 story extensions in the donut. If you built it, no one would call DOB, or even knew or cared about permits. Now things have changed. I doubt dob would like you jackhammering or sledgehammering cement 2 feet from where people walk. If you DIY it better, make sure debris doesn’t hit people.
Highly likely you get away with this, but just make sure you know what you’re gonna do if you get a visit from dob.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
Also, when digging, make sure you don’t harm a gas pipe.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
i do not think a permit is needed and if this is the kind of concrete that tree haters installed in the 50’s or 60’s i would bet your neighbors would be glad to see it go. except over here in queens. over here they still cut the trees down and put concrete in.
go for it; going green is the way to go.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
No one so far has been able to concretely answer whether concrete removal requires a permit. Personally, I don’t like speculation as it’s a risk. Early on I suggested calling landscapers and masonry people. They do it day in and day out and will know the rules.
cobblehillhome | 4 years and 3 months ago
Thanks everyone for all the advice. We’re excited to make the front yard much nicer, back to it’s 1940s tax photo glory!
Yes, we won’t want to rupture any pipes or create too much noise for any neighbor that may trigger a complaint… all good points — we might wait to do the jackhammering once we get to know our neighbors a bit more. In the short term, I might simply put up a larger plant bed lined with bedding.
Also don’t love risk, so I will reach out to a few landscapers about the concrete removal question. Thank you again Brownstoner community
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
jane, with perhaps the exception of landmarks in an lpc district, there is no one who seems to have jurisdiction over the front yard (excluding the steps attached to the house). the city dot requires a permit for the sidewalk, but this person is talking about the space between the sidewalk and house. the dob has jurisdiction over the house. so the simple deduction is that there is no agency out there that controls the yard. i am making this assumption as i see people do all sorts of crazy things in their yards over here – fish ponds and water falls – and they add walls and the like and it seems all this is done without any fear of a government agency. i don’t think that agency exists.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
a permit is needed if someone does work that will “regrade” the property. i think the complaint would arise if someone slanted their land in a way that run off ran into the neighbors yard. i only know this because of this:
a few years back a neighbor was talking of regrading their part of our common drive and i was concerned that the raise in grade would cause runoff to flow into my yard (and into my basement garage). i said something to another neighbor who would have been affected by this and he said “that is not going to happen”; he did not mean the water would not flow into our yards, he meant the regrade was not going to happen. so i read up on it, and sure enough, it would have required a permit from the DOB.
we can assume that the OP is removing concrete and that will not cause an increase in height that will spill water into the neighbor’s yards. if they OP then adds topsoil to the point it regrades the yard, i suppose if a neighbor complains, the DOB will come into play.
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
@steve what I’m thinking is if there’s no record on file at dob of the configuration of that yard, which there probably isn’t, DOB can’t really say it’s not how it’s supposed to be. Most likely you can’t see the areaway in the tax photos, but it’s possible you could. Removing the cement should improve the drainage considerably, although it could create water entry in the cellar. I’d try to retain the hardscaping close to the house and around the coal hatch if possible. The biggest risk would be a neighbor calling just because they see work going on, and then you’d need to actually figure out what kind of permit you need for this, and whole lot of paperwork could end up getting filed(and paid for) for nothing.