Mini garden in front of brownstone - need permit?
Hi, our current brownstone has concrete in the front – I’d like to remove some of it to plant a garden. Does the concrete removal require a permit?
I found this: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/rules/1_RCNY_101-14.pdf however the rules of “nursery” don’t mention concrete removal!
(Ideally we’d like to do the work ourselves, so any advice on a project like this, welcomed, too. )
cobblehillhome
in General Discussion 4 years and 3 months ago
31
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31 replies
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
Pouring concrete is in the code, and certain drainage requirements can apply depending on the amount of concrete and other factors, I think under a certain amount may be exempt. One has to do with how much you can drain into a combined building drain, ie not separate storm, and it’s a little tricky, but you can work it out. I had to do the calcs once to convince my plumber the drainage was code compliant for a patio, most LMPs are hesitant to do that. Removal wouldn’t have that issues, but probably would technically require a demo permit. That aid removal of a few hundred square feet of patio would very likely qualify as a minor alteration not affecting the health, safety, or fire code and therefore not require a permit. But it’s not about whether a permit is legally required, but whether you end up getting a stop work order, and what your backup plan is in that case. I would do not hesistate to remove cement from my areaway, but if someone had filed an areaway plan in 2005, I’d want to know that.
Now most areaways and stoops and areaway fences are in fact partly or tot ally on city property. Don’t believe me? Check your survey. At some point in was decided that these structures were grandfathered and allowed to remain without a formal revocable consent from the city, and no fees are charged on them like new stoops would be. But the city can and has ordered people to remove stoops for sidewalk projects. There is not adverse property claim available against city sidewalks, so even if you’ve been using it for 150 years, it doesn’t become yours. Weird but true.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
My point was about concrete – there are specific rules around pouring or removing concrete in different areas. Separately, front yards are usually inside a property fence. Is that not the case here?
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
The problem is that the code falls in a gray area. Areaways that are on city property don’t have a clear code. If you decide to ask dob for an interpretation, you may find yourself in a rabbit hole to hell, so it’s really just about having a plan if you get tattled on.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
I have been burned a few times with wrong advice here. Till someone pastes the Code in here regarding concrete removal or pouring, it is speculative. That being said go for it if you think no one will complain.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
bob, i love this. if there is one thing i wish we had a law against in this city it is cutting down healthy trees and laying concrete. the mindset in brooklyn is go green. over here it is, cut the trees down, lay concrete, park a “caddy” on the concrete and go inside and eat and watch tv.
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 4 years and 3 months ago
@doorsbythetinkerswagon
I believe so, the issue is the same.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
ahh, thank you bobjbbkln. this is very good to know. and would that mean for the back yard as well? here is runs down the community drive and into to the sewers. this is something useful to know.
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
I second that!
colonialrevival | 4 years and 3 months ago
Please do make the garden and then share it here once complete!
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 4 years and 3 months ago
@doorsbythetinkerswagon
While you probably can remove concrete, you DO need a permit from DEP to pave an unpaved area in the front yard as it adds more water to the sewer system.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
bob, i know you are on. i have something for you.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
jane asked a valid question and i wanted to drill down – though i do agree with you JH. and i am a tree lover so ripping up concrete? i am all for it.
thank the heavens that NYFC has not found a way to control that 15 feet of space between the front of the house and the sidewalk. that is all we have left.
JohnHancock | 4 years and 3 months ago
You’re overthinkinging this, no one is going to call bc you want to plant some flowers
hkapstein | 4 years and 3 months ago
@steve what I’m thinking is if there’s no record on file at dob of the configuration of that yard, which there probably isn’t, DOB can’t really say it’s not how it’s supposed to be. Most likely you can’t see the areaway in the tax photos, but it’s possible you could. Removing the cement should improve the drainage considerably, although it could create water entry in the cellar. I’d try to retain the hardscaping close to the house and around the coal hatch if possible. The biggest risk would be a neighbor calling just because they see work going on, and then you’d need to actually figure out what kind of permit you need for this, and whole lot of paperwork could end up getting filed(and paid for) for nothing.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
a permit is needed if someone does work that will “regrade” the property. i think the complaint would arise if someone slanted their land in a way that run off ran into the neighbors yard. i only know this because of this:
a few years back a neighbor was talking of regrading their part of our common drive and i was concerned that the raise in grade would cause runoff to flow into my yard (and into my basement garage). i said something to another neighbor who would have been affected by this and he said “that is not going to happen”; he did not mean the water would not flow into our yards, he meant the regrade was not going to happen. so i read up on it, and sure enough, it would have required a permit from the DOB.
we can assume that the OP is removing concrete and that will not cause an increase in height that will spill water into the neighbor’s yards. if they OP then adds topsoil to the point it regrades the yard, i suppose if a neighbor complains, the DOB will come into play.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
jane, with perhaps the exception of landmarks in an lpc district, there is no one who seems to have jurisdiction over the front yard (excluding the steps attached to the house). the city dot requires a permit for the sidewalk, but this person is talking about the space between the sidewalk and house. the dob has jurisdiction over the house. so the simple deduction is that there is no agency out there that controls the yard. i am making this assumption as i see people do all sorts of crazy things in their yards over here – fish ponds and water falls – and they add walls and the like and it seems all this is done without any fear of a government agency. i don’t think that agency exists.
cobblehillhome | 4 years and 3 months ago
Thanks everyone for all the advice. We’re excited to make the front yard much nicer, back to it’s 1940s tax photo glory!
Yes, we won’t want to rupture any pipes or create too much noise for any neighbor that may trigger a complaint… all good points — we might wait to do the jackhammering once we get to know our neighbors a bit more. In the short term, I might simply put up a larger plant bed lined with bedding.
Also don’t love risk, so I will reach out to a few landscapers about the concrete removal question. Thank you again Brownstoner community
Guest User | 4 years and 3 months ago
No one so far has been able to concretely answer whether concrete removal requires a permit. Personally, I don’t like speculation as it’s a risk. Early on I suggested calling landscapers and masonry people. They do it day in and day out and will know the rules.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 3 months ago
i do not think a permit is needed and if this is the kind of concrete that tree haters installed in the 50’s or 60’s i would bet your neighbors would be glad to see it go. except over here in queens. over here they still cut the trees down and put concrete in.
go for it; going green is the way to go.