Master Plumber Help Desperately needed!
Master Plumber help needed-
This is a long one and I hope someone is able to help or give some suggestions. We completed a gut reno on a 4 story, 3 family brownstone last year. We absolutely hated our plumber who was shoved down our throat by our GC. I have so many plumbing issues in the house I have been addressing one by one. “Tapping” noises all over the cellar and ground floor due to thermal expansion from pipes not being properly fastened to a bang when my top floor tenants flush the toilet. Our walls have been opened up more times than I can count. I have a good grip on just about everything at this point (for the most part) other than the banging. Now follow me here-
It is NOT a water hammer. I am certain of it- Water hammer arresters have been installed on every toilet and fixture in the house. We had the water hammer problem already which has been resolved.
It sounds like the cast iron pipe is actually banging up against framing. I was told this was not possible due to the weight of the cast iron pipe but I was so sure I knew what the noise was that I cut open the walls and found the pipe to be secure, so it’s not that.
The waste line goes up to the top of the roof and straight down from each of the two apartments. The only slight turn is inside our master bathroom in our bedroom on the ground floor.
I can live with hearing the water sound (even though I know the pipe should have never been placed inside my master bath wall to begin with). The Banging noise drives me absolutely insane though. The thing is, it doesn’t happen every single time. I had this crazy weigh theory that I thought it was the toilet paper making the noise and hitting the angle in our master bath.
The plumber just came back to our house this past weekend and after many flushes, he finally heard it. He has no idea what is making the sound (but the guy is about as sharp as a marble).
He suggested he send his buddy to our house who has a camera to drop down the line. He was convinced that something was stuck in there. Well, there isn’t. The camera went right through with no issues and the guy doing it didn’t see a thing. So………… What is it!? I can’t wrap my head around it and its driving me absolutely insane. I am hoping we can all put our heads together and attempt to figure this out. And yes…. I am sure it’s not a water hammer. It’s this weird banging type sound that doesn’t happen every time but when it does, it can wake us up (that’s how loud it is).
I have had 3 plumbers come to the house and they either have no clue what it could be or I can’t make it happen for them while they are there. I feel like people think we are nuts and are making this up. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Would love some replies from some master plumbers. I do not want to finish my house by patching up any holes they have made until I figure out what in the world this could be. THANK YOU
stuyheights
in General Discussion 8 years and 8 months ago
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47 replies
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
Run Joe- One of those PVC pipes in the overflow for the laundry room I believe and the other is either a toilet or bathroom shower drain. We only have standup showers, no tub. I honestly couldn’t tell you if there would be an issue above. I only hear the bang after a flush. Its driving me mad. I wonder if I should pull the bowls and try to snake it just incase.
Reuven- I will have to check that out. I’m not sure.
reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago
There is one other possible cause I can think of. The water branch lies feeding the fixtures have tees. When splitting the flow of water to the fixtures the tees or tee feeding a toilet should be in a vertice position. If that tee is in a horizontal position because the toilet fill valve restricts flow. I know this because 15 years ago I did a bathroom job and my guy put the tee vertical splitting the water to the sink and tub. After talking to a couple of friends who are licensed plumbers they ask me the question of r he tee. We opened the wall saw the tee horizontal changes it in a
Vertical position and the problem was solved. Again I don’t know if this is what’s happening to you but it seems the toilet is your issue.
Run Joe | 8 years and 7 months ago
Where do the two PVC pipes on the left go up to? What about the pipe below those 2 going down(with the reduced elbow).. where does that go?
If there was an obstruction along that T, wouldn’t it be noticeable at the tub and sink above? If there was a venting issue I would think that you would probably smell sewer gas there.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
The plumber mixed and matched PVC and Cast Iron all over the place. The main stack is cast iron which goes down through the parlor and into the master bath which is where I am hearing the noise from (both on the parlor and ground floor). I didn’t want the ceilings dropped on the parlor so he made the T that attaches to the main stack with PVC but that’s not where I am hearing the sound but where I believe a potential obstruction could be based on the article I have attached. Thank you for your reply. Appreciate it
Run Joe | 8 years and 7 months ago
Is the sound coming from the cast iron piping in the first picture or from the PVC piping in the newer pictures. BTW, PVC is pretty noisey
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
After recording this noise in the morning and playing it over and over, I have a couple of new theories.
1. The “bang” happens every morning as the tenants are getting ready. I have been putting the phone on the master bathroom vanity and letting it record for an hour or so and I hear it every time. I had a guy come last week to drop a camera down the main stack from the roof and he found no obstructions. I stumbled across this article last night. http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/toilet-flushing-causes-pipe-rumblings.12429/
The more I listen to it, the less and less I feel like it is a water hammer. Especially since there are water hammer arrestors attached to every fixture in the apartments. I wish I could upload the recording for you all to hear. I just don’t understand why it doesn’t make the noise every time. What do you think about this theory (of the attached link)?
2. I happened to be on the parlor floor the other night when I heard the toilet flush and heard the faint banging noise there as well. Keep in mind, my ceilings are sound proofed which would be masking the sound transmission. It really sounds like the noise is coming from the pipe itself. I cut open 2 parts of the wall in the parlor and a part of the ceiling in the master bath where the pipe runs down. I couldn’t move the pipe a bit with both hands on it. It would also blow the theory about the pipe hitting the framing in the bathroom because why would I still be hearing the noise on the parlor as well, even if it was faint.
3. Its some type of venting issue- Not enough or blocked. Again, we had a camera dropped from the roof down showing no obstructions unless the horizontal pipes that branch off into the main stack have some sort of partial obstruction. Please have a look at these pictures. [IMG_0627](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:bWYT:img_0627.jpg.jpg) [IMG_0625](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:Byj5:img_0625.jpg.jpg) [IMG_0626](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:zHjp:img_0626.jpg.jpg)
maybe something is possibly obstructed here that the camera didn’t see? would that be causing this loud noise I am hearing somehow? also, what if it isn’t vented properly and additional vents would need to be added or tied in? that sounds like an absolute nightmare.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
Thanks for your 10 cents Hilman. They may end up being worth more than that. Ill certainly look into this. Run Joe- You make some very valid points and the “turbulence” noise you describe sounds like an accurate description of what I am hearing.
How would this be fixed? Do you think the pipe should be set up differently?
Also, the moment you all have been waiting for (drumroll). I set my phone up on top of the vanity this morning at the same time I know the top floor tenants get ready and recorded the sound. Brownstoner does not allow me up upload wav files but if any of you are interested in hearing it, you can email me at just8155 at gmail.
Greatly appreciate all of your help and input!
reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago
Run Joe might be correct
Run Joe | 8 years and 7 months ago
> @just5581
> 2. All of the force of the water traveling down 20-30 feet are ending up in one 60 degree bend
I’m leaning toward this. The two elbows shown in the photo would definitely create turbulence in the waste line; especially after dropping 20-30 feet. It looks like the waste line is in contact with studs/framing in several places. With cement board and tiles affixed to the framing, it’s likely that any noises caused by turbulence in this section would be transferred to wall.
hillman | 8 years and 7 months ago
Here’s my 10 cents.
It could be the water pressure. The supply cold can bang when a supply is opened or closed.
Also it may not happen all the time because the water pressure may not be as high because there maybe a high demand for water in the area.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
CMU- I am not saying the vent pipes are making noise. I am wondering if it is possible that the waste line itself is making noise due to not being vented properly (having enough air).
I came across this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system
Take a look at the “Operation” section of it. I wonder if this is what I am experiencing.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
Reuven- Thank you again for your reply and your contribution to this post. As previously noted (in the original post), water hammer arrestors have been installed on every single fixture and toilet in the house. This includes the kitchen sink, bathroom faucet and toilet of both apartments as well as our triplex.
There are no water hammer arrestors in the cellar but we did try an expansion tank which did absolutely nothing so we removed it.
reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago
I think I may have figured out your problem
There is a device called a hammer arrestor
Generally at the top of the risers it is good to install this helps prevent knocking or banging when water makes a sharp stop as example when using a toilet the water can shift to the faucets as the toilet is taking in the water to fill the tank. This is a common problem. Without getting into specifics it is very inexpensive to install it. You can install it at the water main above the meter. Worst case senerio it doesn’t work it’s still a good device to have. Look up water hammer on Wikipedia. Although it is better to install on the top of the risers the walls will have to be open and the workeys will cost a lot more money. I have installed many of them in the cellar and it did create a change. That’s not saying this is your real problem but it may be. Any way I hope this helps you.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
Thanks for the reply CMU. I do believe the apartment toilets are the 1.28 kind. The thermal expansion noise are loud pops but that is the least of my concerns at this point.
Its frustrating because its all brand new plumbing and in my opinion, I shouldn’t have to be dealing with this type of stuff in a brand new gut renovated home. I know where all (or most) of the copper pipes are ran from the cellar to the ground floor so cutting the walls open, insulating and securing better wont be the end of the world. This “banging” on the other hand is an entire different story. At least I know what is causing the thermal expansion “ticking”. The most frustrating thing in the world is hearing a huge bang in your house from time to time and not knowing what it is and what is causing it. I am certain it only happens when the toilet bowls are flushed from the top two floors. I can never get it to happen on demand.
Process of elimination tells me –
1. It can possibly still be a water hammer somewhere but I highly highly doubt it. Water hammer arrestors were installed everywhere a nd the top two apartment copper plumbing are not in my Master bedroom ceiling or master bath.
2. All of the force of the water traveling down 20-30 feet are ending up in one 60 degree bend that is very close to the framing and it is somehow shifting the waste line a tad and it is smacking up against the framing. The entire marble shower should need to be cut open to access this pipe. It will be a nightmare and expensive.
3. We have a venting issue. I have TONS of pics of the construction being done on the house. I do not see any vent lines tied into the stack on the parlor or ground level. Maybe the run is too long and not enough venting is through the main drain line? The parlor floor is almost 11 feet tall and the ground is roughly 8. Lets call it 20 feet right there. Would that be too long of a run not to have vent lines tied into it? I could be wrong and just not seeing the venting in the pics.
I had a guy drop a camera down the stack from the roof all the way down and he said he saw no obstructions in the pipe whatsoever. Every time I have a plumber at the house I can never get it to make the noise. This morning around 7am when my tenants are getting ready for work I heard the bang a few times. I don’t know if its due to what is in the toilet at the time, some type of pressure buildup overnight or the water hitting the pipe just right to make it hit the framing or what.
No clue- but I’ve been trying to solve this problem for months. Have no idea what exactly is causing it. Its driving us insane
cmu | 8 years and 7 months ago
Vent pipes admit air. Highly unlikely to make any noise of your type.
Generally plumbers make holes larger than the pipes, so binding is not likely. They could be clamped badly.
How loud is the noise…my steam pipes which have been plastered close over the years where they go through the ceiling or wall make loud clicks as the system heats. I’ve gotten used to them.
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
The thermal expansion noise is only coming from the cellar and ground floor. The pipes look like they were ran through wood without any insulation or support clamps.
What is the general rule for venting a waste line in a 4 story, 3 family? How many venting lines should be off of that stack and at what distances? I’m considering this to be a possibility as well.
cmu | 8 years and 7 months ago
is the tenant’s toilet one of those new 1.28 g. flushers?
You mention thermal expansion, which is only an issue with hot water pipes. So is the tapping only when you wait for hot water (ie when pipes were cold?)
reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago
Ok I wish I had an answer to help you
stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago
I will send the pics to your email address. The problem is, I have had many different plumbers to the house and 99% of the time I can not get it to make the “banging noise”. That is what makes diagnosing the problem extremely difficult. It only happens sometimes and I don’t know exactly what causes it. Its 100% the waste line