Master Plumber Help Desperately needed!

Master Plumber help needed-

This is a long one and I hope someone is able to help or give some suggestions. We completed a gut reno on a 4 story, 3 family brownstone last year. We absolutely hated our plumber who was shoved down our throat by our GC. I have so many plumbing issues in the house I have been addressing one by one. “Tapping” noises all over the cellar and ground floor due to thermal expansion from pipes not being properly fastened to a bang when my top floor tenants flush the toilet. Our walls have been opened up more times than I can count. I have a good grip on just about everything at this point (for the most part) other than the banging. Now follow me here-

It is NOT a water hammer. I am certain of it- Water hammer arresters have been installed on every toilet and fixture in the house. We had the water hammer problem already which has been resolved.

It sounds like the cast iron pipe is actually banging up against framing. I was told this was not possible due to the weight of the cast iron pipe but I was so sure I knew what the noise was that I cut open the walls and found the pipe to be secure, so it’s not that.

The waste line goes up to the top of the roof and straight down from each of the two apartments. The only slight turn is inside our master bathroom in our bedroom on the ground floor.
I can live with hearing the water sound (even though I know the pipe should have never been placed inside my master bath wall to begin with). The Banging noise drives me absolutely insane though. The thing is, it doesn’t happen every single time. I had this crazy weigh theory that I thought it was the toilet paper making the noise and hitting the angle in our master bath.

The plumber just came back to our house this past weekend and after many flushes, he finally heard it. He has no idea what is making the sound (but the guy is about as sharp as a marble).
He suggested he send his buddy to our house who has a camera to drop down the line. He was convinced that something was stuck in there. Well, there isn’t. The camera went right through with no issues and the guy doing it didn’t see a thing. So………… What is it!? I can’t wrap my head around it and its driving me absolutely insane. I am hoping we can all put our heads together and attempt to figure this out. And yes…. I am sure it’s not a water hammer. It’s this weird banging type sound that doesn’t happen every time but when it does, it can wake us up (that’s how loud it is).

I have had 3 plumbers come to the house and they either have no clue what it could be or I can’t make it happen for them while they are there. I feel like people think we are nuts and are making this up. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Would love some replies from some master plumbers. I do not want to finish my house by patching up any holes they have made until I figure out what in the world this could be. THANK YOU

stuyheights

in General Discussion 8 years and 8 months ago

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hillman | 8 years and 7 months ago

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put a regulator on that supply line in the basement. Pressure is to much.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Master Plumber,
I did put a couple of calls into your office but they told me you were too busy right now to come take a look which is fine but I was hoping to pick your brain further on a recommended fix to this problem.

As I have said earlier, I did change both toilets fill valves with no success. Also, hammer arrestors were installed at every fixture in both apartments including the toilet bowl itself without any luck. I have been reading about runs of piping longer then 20 feet. This is what I came across

“Install the water shock arrestor or water hammer arresting device near (but not at ) the end of a water supply branch between the last two plumbing fixtureson that branch – for plumbing branch lines that are 20 feet or less in total length.

Watch out: do not install the water hammer arrestor at the very end or uppermost end of supply piping in a building. A water shock arrestor installed in this location is unlikely to be effective.

For longer plumbing supply pipe runs (longer than 20 ft)you may require at least one additional water hammer arrestor. In this case place the second water hammer arrestor at the mid point of the total length of the plumbing pipe run.”

Is this only for commercial applications or would this apply in my case as well? The run is certainly beyond 20 feet. I’m wondering where else you would suggest Install them. I am hoping the lines are secured enough and this is not due to poor strapping but I am not hopeful. If that ends up being the case, any suggestions? Maybe spray foam?

The last thing I can think of it could be is this pvc pipe moving somehow creating a “bang”.

[IMG_0661](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:dW3o:img_0661.png.jpg) [IMG_0625](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:S3fV:img_0625.jpg.jpg) [IMG_0626](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:oIEV:img_0626.jpg.jpg) [IMG_0627](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:G6H8:img_0627.jpg.jpg) [IMG_0683](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:ROIa:img_0683.png.jpg) [IMG_0684](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:ukK9:img_0684.png.jpg) [IMG_0685](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:O1dA:img_0685.png.jpg) [IMG_0626](img_0626.jpg) [IMG_0627](img_0627.jpg) [IMG_0683](img_0683.png) [IMG_0684](img_0684.png) [IMG_0685](img_0685.png) [IMG_0686](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:g1g9:img_0686.png.jpg)

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Thank you Come4it. That is very helpful

LarryBryant | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I can advise you Plumber from Toronto here http://aqualuxdp.net but if you live in Canada of course. They know how to do this plumbing things right

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Well, I must admit… I was wrong. After troubleshooting the house for 4 hours on Saturday i believe the sound we are hearing is still a water hammer. I am quite surprised we are still experiencing a water hammer even though we have installed arrestors at every sink, faucet and laundry room in the apartments. I went back through all of the pictures of the roughing and it seems as though this guy did a real shitty job strapping down the pipes.

Now that I have plaster ceilings and moldings this is going to be impossible to fix inside the walls. I read I should spray some hardening spray foam wherever I can and believe the pipes to be moving to secure them? Any other suggestions on how to fix pipes that weren’t secured very well in a finished house without destroying it?

MP- The original plumber installed separate water heaters and risers for the top two apartments. They branch off of the Parlor Ceiling. I do not have any water hammering at all on my floors (parlor, ground and cellar) for some reason. Its only the top floor apartments- and I still don’t think its just one of them- Both do it.

This weekend we went upstairs and turned the water on and off at the kitchen and bathroom sinks. I noticed a “thump” at the location as well as all the way down to the cellar. Arrestors are installed at every fixture but in reading Sioux manual it says that runs longer than 20 feet may need additional arrestors at the midway point of the run. The cellar is 7 feet tall, the ground is 8 and the parlor is 11 feet tall. That is way beyond 20 feet long. Does anyone know the answer to this and have any other suggestions on where to put them? I also put one directly on the toilet itself but still heard the banging noise this morning.
Should one go near the water heater or the shut off valves in the cellar for the apartments?

Last, I noticed I hear the “bang” from the toilet bowl flushing on the top two floors early in the morning and late at night so this is certainly some type of pressure build up. Has anyone ever installed a Pressure reducing valve in their house or just on certain floors? Any advise with this would be greatly appreciated. I really don’t want to mask the problem and would like to get to the root of it. I don’t understand why all of these hammer arrestors are needed to begin with. I would imagine the pipes weren’t ran correctly and have too many turns and curves?

Would greatly appreciate your input MP. I didn’t want to have you come here to troubleshoot. At least now I know what is causing it. Thats half the problem.
Thank you all again so very much. I sincerely appreciate it. Happy Holidays everyone!

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Yes, the internet is a wonderful resource, regina. I hear that if you look online on brownstoner, sometimes you can find a knowledgeable plumber who posts as Master Plvmber. Maybe the original poster will consider trying that.

Master Plvmber | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Yes. Did my office will tell you the fee for a typical service call? Please work it out with them and they’ll put it on my schedule.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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MP, would you be able to come check it out one morning? I put a call into your office today.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Master plumber- if you want to come by to take a crack at it I’m all for it. You can call or email me offline. I sent an email to you.

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I’m wondering if it is the venting. Maybe not necessarily an obstruction but not properly vented in the buildout. We have smelt rotten eggs before in the tenants bathrooms but I didn’t think anything of it at the time. I cleaned the shower drain prior to them moving in.

Is it possible there isn’t enough venting? I know it vents out the top of the house. I dropped a camera down there which showed no obstructions. We didn’t take the toilets off to see if there were any blocks in the T lines which connect to the waste line.

Water hammer arrestors were installed at every fixture in the house- they were soldered on. A friend of ours told us yesterday he hates that kind because if not installed correctly, the plumber could overheat the arrestor and cause it to not function properly upon installation. I guess this could be possible.

Another therory I have is trying a “master reset” where we would drain all of the water out of the house and start over with proper fixtures on and off when we did it incase there were air in the lines? Would this be possible if the plumber didn’t restart the system properly or would that not even matter?

If it is a venting issue and not enough of it, I’m wondering how we would even fix it at this point to add venting lines to the stack.

I have a google drive album that shows all of the roughing of pics we took during many different phases of the construction of our house to reference to see what was done here.

I have had many plumbers come here and I can never get it to make the sound and everyone tells me they need to hear it. I do have recordings of it but have yet to be able to show someone while they are actually here.

Greatly appreciate your time. This has been going on for about 6 months and driving us absolutely mad.

Master Plvmber | 8 years and 7 months ago

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It’s not in your drain line, I promise you. Do you not have a plumber you can call that will take a look?

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Good morning,
Installed these yesterday –

Korky 528MP QuietFILL Platinum Toilet Fill Valve https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004TKTX14/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_GRcrybPX73EJ6

Still heard the noise just now when the upstairs tenants flushed.

Master Plvmber | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Then you didn’t turn it low enough. Anyway, try a different fill valve. This one seems to be the least fast-acting and quietest:
https://www.amazon.com/Korky-95001-Quiet-Toilet-Valve/dp/B00838IQRK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480853346&sr=8-1&keywords=corky+quiet+fill

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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MP- Thanks for your reply. I did try adjusting the shut off valve when you had mentioned it to me but it didn’t help. I will be swapping out the fill valves on both apartment toilets with Fluidmasters this afternoon. I will keep you all posted. I greatly appreciate all of the input and advise.

Master Plvmber | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Your honest plumber is operating illegally without a license. That’s why he’s cheap.
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/LicenseTypeServlet?vlfirst=N

coconut | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I have a plumber named Anthony Wells and this is the first time I can say I did not feel ripped off. His prices are fair and I like the fact that because he sees a woman he did not take advantage of me. He also had great reviews. 646-319-9988. Also I know about plumbing so I know when someone is lying to me and how the repair needs to be done so this is an honest man.

Master Plvmber | 8 years and 7 months ago

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The noise is coming from the water line.
The noise is coming from the water line.
The noise is coming from the water line.
The noise is coming from the water line.
Oh em gee, the noise is coming from the water line.

The toilet fill valve, sometimes called a ballcock, is classified as a “quick-closing valve”. The sudden closing of that valve at the end of a flush cycle is causing the noise. The fact that it doesn’t always happen has to do with incoming water pressure fluctuations.
As advised earlier here and on the phone, adjust your flow rate by closing the shut off valve a bit and the noise will go away. Or, replace the fill valve with a better model.

reuventenam | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I am not sure. Did you hire a plumber to do the work

stuyheights | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Thinking out loud here,

We have a powder room we added on the parlor floor that is being redone. We still haven’t finished it yet and the toilet bowl has been taken off. Would this have anything to do with the sound we are hearing you think? I am trying to throw anything i can think of out there.