Manhattan electrical work question

Any electricians in Manhattan ? Current washer dryer combo is hardwired and a mess. Wire burnt and electrician wants to redo wiring and put in an outlet in Manhattan

Running 10/3 bx wire from electrical panel to washer dryer
Install 3 prong 220v outlet
Install 2 ceiling access panels

$600. Materials additional which is probably additional 150. Is this a good price or too steep? He said he running 2 lines

thewinduprobot

in General Discussion 1 year and 4 months ago

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hkapstein | 1 year and 4 months ago

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You might be right, but I’ve never encountered a panel with only one leg. Can you provide an example or reference that shows that this once complied with the code, or was commonly done? I did see a post on another forum that said a 1 leg panel was made for use in sheds on pretty small loads, but nothing that said it could be used in apts.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago

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what they sometimes do on these panels on upper floor or coops is instead of having a main like we see in a house is to use to breaker slots – one for each leg – and feed the power into the box that way. i have never seen that done at a main panel where the service entrance is in a house.

hkapstein | 1 year and 4 months ago

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Regarding co-ops and no 220v, I’d be surprised if this were the case. If there is a panel the in the apartment, usually the way it works, there will be two hot lugs in the panel at 120vac to neutral in opposite phases, and a neutral. Each breaker in your panel, in vertical sequence, will alternate between the two phases. A single pole breaker connects the 120v phase to neutral and give you a 120v circuit. A double pole breaker will take up two vertical slots and will cross the phases which will give you 120-(-120)=240v. I am not familiar with a case where an apartment had access to only one phase, but I’d be interested to learn if this were the case. So if there is room in the panel you can normally add a 240v.

The proposal seems normal in cost, I’m probably late to the party, but yes if he says bx, he’s using type AC, or maybe type MC, which is fine. One suspect item is that there is a hardwire running from the panel to the combo machine. If that is 10/3, why n ot just install the outlet on the original cable? If the wire was undersized originally, say 12/3 where the appliance required 30a, I’d count my lucky stars and do shot.

hkapstein | 1 year and 4 months ago

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BX cable as I understand was once a brand name for a type of metal sheathed cable that included no ground other than the jacket and was popular in NYC. While many still refer to any metal jacketed cable as BX, what was originally BX cable is no longer compliant with the NEC due to the inadequate ground. Did BX use pvc or fabric insulation, or both at different times? I’m not sure, maybe someone knows. There are two similar products that are code compliant today. Type AC cable(armored cable), and type MC cable(Metal Clad). They look the same, but inside type AC contains a very small aluminum grounded strip, that along with the jacket is considered an adequate ground. The advantage is that type AC cable can be connected to a metal box with only a clamp and no need to ground the box to a separate copper ground wire. This reduces installation labor and copper cost from the grounding wire. I believe this was the case with type BX in the past but this is no longer code compliant for this purpose, whereas type AC with the grounding strip is. Type MC cable contains an extra grou nd wire, but the jacket itself is not considered an adequate ground path for the boxes and circuits it’s connected to, so the ground wire must be tied into metal boxes just as NM(romex) would. Type AC cable can be used in fewer situations and is not made in as large gauges as type MC limiting it’s use somewhat.

cate | 1 year and 4 months ago

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Coops usually don’t have 220 service.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago

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BX is still being made. if the electrician is doing a home run to the main panel, it will have 220 unless they do not have remaining breaker slots on both sides of the panel or they have an old fuse panel that was put in at the very start of the electrification. It is my belief that all sub panels have 220 volts as well because any sub panels i have seen have two hot wires coming into them (but i am not an electrician but have some training).

to urbandad’s comment about “800 being high given how easy it is”: how easy something is has nothing to do with the cost of anything. in this case, the price will be impacted by many things including the cost of labor (and highly skilled labor costs more), worker protections, business insurance, the time it take to drive a van around manhattan. Those are the things many homeowners have trouble factoring in when trying to arrive at a price for a project. it often leads to them selecting unrealistically low bids or unlicensed people (handymen) for electrical work. Check the license.

cate | 1 year and 4 months ago

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On second thought this sounds like a normal price to put in an outlet. What are the access panels for? Did this electrician verify that 220 v already exists and is available to run from the panel? Did you verify the electrician has a currently active license in his own name? If he’s proposing to run BX cable and that no longer exists (according to poster above) that’s a red flag. Are you in a co-op? You’re going to need approval for this and for the electrician from the co-op. In any case, the electrician also has to apply for a permit for the job and make sure it’s signed off on.

hkapstein | 1 year and 4 months ago

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Man this forum is getting to be all contractors and no helpful neighbors. Cate might edit me but it is what it is. Anyway bx cable is no longer made, you won’t be running bx. The most similar product available today is type AC cable, or MCap cable, which is basically the same thing, but some versions exist that differ. You can run 10/3 for a 30a circuit for the dryer, and a 12/2 for a 20a circuit for the washer, unless they they need to be larger by the code because of site conditions such as long length. You will also need a breaker, and probably both should be a GFCI breaker and an AFCI breaker. So this will cost a few bucks. So realistically it depends on the price of the breakers, wire, and labor, and a few accessories, boxes outlets etc. So how hard is it to run from the panel to the laundry? If it’s 5 feet in an unfinished basement, the labor is very low. If 20 feet and needs to be fished behind sheetrock through obstacles, much higher. 800 or so used to be the going rate for this work pre-covid. I always thought it was high given how easy it is.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago

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so op and others. i would have provided a longer response yesterday but was on a fire investigation dealing with 7 professionals who were all above my pay grade: if a quote ever looks “too low”, it is a good idea to dig around a little bit or carefully read the quote. With electricians (so long as the “electrician” is an electrician; see cate’s reply) this is less likely to be an issue because electricians usually get it right (they are trained a licensed; if they screw up someone can die) but that does not mean i would not think about what they are saying and maybe the wire size the equipment calls for. for other work, i might ask some questions to be sure the contractor has considered everything and not left something out. it might be the contractor’s responsibility to complete the job and in reality with an electrician on a small job, if he makes a mistake with his numbers – depending on his level of professionalism, he might just complete the job and not say anything (his problem, he owns it). but less than professional people will come back to the homeown er with their hands out and on big jobs, when contractors run out of money, it spells disaster and becomes everyone’s problem. in a professional environment with people managing projects, it is a reflection on the project manager if something goes wrong and a contractor makes a mistake with money. if homeowners understood that, it would save them a lot of headaches.

thewinduprobot | 1 year and 4 months ago

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Oops yea the cable is expensive so with materials around 850. I’m happy

thewinduprobot | 1 year and 4 months ago

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So 750 total is ok?

cate | 1 year and 4 months ago

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    bool(true)
    ["update_core"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["list_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["remove_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["promote_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_theme_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["export"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Gallery overview"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Use TinyMCE"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Upload images"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage tags"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage others gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Edit album"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change style"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_users_notify"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_single_user"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_multiple_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_user_groups"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Attach Interface"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["copy_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["ure_edit_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_manage_options"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_reset_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["edit_ads_txt"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_titles"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_sitemap"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_404_monitor"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_link_builder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_redirections"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_role_manager"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_search_console"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_site_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_advanced"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_snippet"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_social"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_admin_bar"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_analytics"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Agree this sounds low. Be sure to check the electrician’s license. If it’s in a co-op or a condo, the board may need to review first.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 4 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5127 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5125 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Sounds low in manhattan.

eg66 | 1 year and 4 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5128 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5119 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "190705"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(4) "eg66"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BYptNExbTXnWOqrBOShMqNoJd/C8mN0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(4) "eg66"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(14) "erwin66@me.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2024-02-22 16:52:17"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(31) "Erwin Gorostiza Erwin Gorostiza"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(190705)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I paid about this, a bit more, to run a line for an electric dryer in Brooklyn.