Joist and beam repair
Hello all,
My partner and I are considering purchase of a brownstone. We just had an engineer inspect it yesterday and it surfaced fairly extensive rot in the back joist from water penetration, another joist or two that would likely need to be replaced eventually, and damage to the main beam that has been addressed in a previous repair but we may want to revisit. He felt that it was sound for now but there is starting to be some sag in the back corner.
From poking around on threads here, it sounds like this is a job for a GC or perhaps a carpenter. Anyone have experience or recommendations for dealing with a similar situation? Before we purchase, we’re trying to get a sense of how scary / urgent / typical this is and ballpark price range to get it resolved . We’re specifically interested in information on the structural work; we already have a plan for the water issues.
Many thanks!
Guest User | 4 years and 4 months ago
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restorationcontractor | 4 years and 4 months ago
Joe McLean No problem, if you would like to discuss further my email is Larconst@aol.com.
cate | 4 years and 4 months ago
As Urbandad says, the repair is pretty straightforward. I would be more concerned about the water. You are sure you just need concrete outside tilted in the right direction? If so, that’s great too — no big deal and quick and easy. But usually if there is water the sellers have been unable to fix it and it might take a long time to solve the problem. If the water has been a problem for a long time, it may have caused other issues. I would advise against buying a house with water issues.
hkapstein | 4 years and 4 months ago
I know many people who can do this. Try John Gomez 646-533-6885. John Sullivan was popular in the past, but I didn’t have a good experience with him. He did not want to do the structural work in the way that my engineer had designed it, and tried to talk me into something else. Other contractors were able to bid the design done as per the plans no problem. Since there were very specific reasons for the design we engineered, I was irritated that he wanted to customize the design for his convenience, but you may not have this issue in your situation. You might be tempted to think this is “Structural” work that is important and needs a really fancy contractor. While it is important to do it right, it’s actually an easy project for most builders, especially if they have engineering plans to work off. Basically you need to shore the structure with jackposts and lumber, then demo the old beam, did holes and pour the new footings, and install columns, and, and place and shim the new beams. Frankly, a DIYer who knows what they are doing could do it. I have done this, but not fo r the main beam in a brownstone.
The issues that could go wrong are not sizing the footing, columns or beams to adequately support the weight of the floor, not putting the footing deap enough, and not bolting or welding these components with sufficient strong fasteners or welds. But with the engineer specifying those details, you won’t have to wonder if the contractor got it right. Frankly contractors do this all the time without an engineer, and they usually over engineer it to comensate for the uncertainty. But I’d be more careful with contractor choice if I didn’t have an enginer. Want an engineer for this? Try Kemba Walcott, or Tarek Zeid, but there’s many structural engineers folks on brownstoner can recommend for you.
Finally, you can probably use a glulam beam or LVL beam instead of steel, but most folks use a steel beam. Steel is much more fire resistent, and will take more weight if you need to build a steel structure on top if it. It won’t sag in this application and can cross a longer span without support. It’s also possible to make a moment joint in steel, but generally not in wood, which could become relevant at some point. If you need to reinforce floors above, you can build off the steel beam and you’ll have plenty of extra weight capacity, the LVL will probably have less weight to spare.
Guest User | 4 years and 4 months ago
Thanks so much for the detailed response. The damage is due to water intrusion from the backyard – water has been pooling since the space behind the building is not graded correctly and needs a concrete pad to draw water away. We already plan to repair this first thing and are receiving estimates.
We have heard similar things regarding termites but are not sure whether that’s a factor here from inspecting visually without expertise.
The posts are brick and in pretty good shape, though need to be repointed. We have no plans to finish or further excavate the basement, so we would maintain them as is.
As a former woodworker, I have great appreciation for good lumber. I vastly prefer using high quality materials in an application like this.
We are struggling to find a qualified contractor. Do you provide services like this, or know/recommend someone who does?
restorationcontractor | 4 years and 4 months ago
JoeMcLean, It’s very typical for older homes to have some rotted/damaged joists. Definitely not a deal breaker and you can always put in temporary shoring if needed until you can address it. Consulting with an engineer come in was the right thing to do.
You should also check for potential additional damage from termites.
What was the cause of the existing damage and what needs to be done to prevent it? You don’t want to do the repairs and have the damage process continue.
As far as the “main” carrying beam if it’s in poor shape I would look at replacing it with steel. You get a stronger beam that can be smaller than the exiting wood one. What is the condition of the posts that support this? If they are in poor shape they should be replaced on proper footings as well.
Another thing to consider if you are replacing the posts is to set the footings below any potential future basement excavation (even if its just a few inches for floor replacement). I see many houses where the post footings are installed above the floor, there is no need for this, it results in a trip h azard and just looks ugly.
What the carrying beam does is reduce the amount of deflection in the floor joists (think bouncy floors) and allowed the original builder to use smaller joists for the span. They can be carrying a substantial amount of weight as the loads are transferred to this beam from bearing walls that can extend up through your building.
When we do joist replacement we custom order our joists in Doug. Fir or S.Y.P. rough sawn from a timber mill, this way we get exact sized joists to match the existing ones both in thickness and height. Cost is slightly higher than the undersized crap you would get from a local lumberyard, plus the rough sawn timber looks great!
I would highly suggest that you have this work done by an experienced GC.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
Steel is for a “girder” if that is what they need or have. Here in queens, in our 20′ wide houses, we dont have girders. That is not to say some of us dont need them.
hkapstein | 4 years and 4 months ago
I’d budget 10-20k for this repair including engineering and DOB costs, and figuring there will be a little additional work needed to get everything the way you want. This is a guess based on what you said, but obviously I have little to go on. Probably makes sense to do a steel system, at least for the main beam and columns. Now if you’re gonna hire an engineer and do this repair, you probably end up replacing the main beam. By the time you do all the paperwork and engineering work and get a contractor in there, you may as well get a robust repair that will last a long time. If you’re gonna patch it up, patch away, but if you’re gonna do a long term repair, you don’t want to be back in there every two years doing another section of that beam.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
There are carpenters who know a lot about this – i run into them in the burbs or small cities. Here it seems people have to plunge into this sort of thing in a big way or not at all. If i lived someplace else, i would probably do less of what i do and know more other things. I think that goes for others as well.
Guest User | 4 years and 4 months ago
Thank you both for the helpful responses! That’s useful input on a carpenter. I had that instinct but have seen some conflicting information on here regarding that point specifically. And yep, it definitely burns a bit to invest in this sort of thing. We are seeking a quote in part to negotiate the price down on this basis; we’ll see how it goes.
NeoGrec | 4 years and 4 months ago
It’s not unusual to face rotted joists and damaged beams when buying a brownstone. But it does require a major intervention to fix including, most likely, the advice of a structural engineer. It depends how deep your pockets are and whether the price reflects the need for this repair (sadly, in my experience, it rarely does). It’s also one of those projects that will make your home structurally sound but you’ll never appreciate the benefit the way you would spending the same amount of money on a new kitchen or bathroom.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
don’t use someone who is just a “carpenter”. i am a carpenter. i have “sistered” these in houses, more for people i know than as part of my business. but many of the carpenters running around, like me, are focused more on the finer details (finish work) than the structural elements. you need a real contractor with structural experience (and not necessarily a GC). that person might have begun as a carpenter but is now onto bigger things including full guts, floors and all. there is a guy on here called “restoration contractor”. he might be someone to start with. a carpenter might get through something like this but the other guys will know what to do if something unexpected comes up or something goes wrong (they will make sure it doesn’t). they will know what to do without thinking about it.