Interesting Heat Pump Story on PBS NewsHour tonight

https://youtu.be/RdzjrVwWz4o

JohnHancock

in General Discussion 2 years and 6 months ago

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brokelin | 2 years and 6 months ago

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I heard that PBS piece on the radio, and was surprised to learn from it – I think it was on that show I heard it – that “now you’re cooking with gas” is a slogan that the gas companies cooked up to promote gas stoves to sell gas (I shouldn’t be surprised, but I was…). Though I don’t know when cooking with electricity became possible – I imagine what most gas stoves replaced originally was not electric cooking, but other combustion methods (wood, coal, other forms of petroleum…)

brokelin | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Buckets of dough, or not, it is certainly more feasible (and likely cheaper) to insulate a single-family house upstate somewhere then it is to try to sufficiently insulate a 120-150 year old Brooklyn brownstone. Yes, it would take gobs of money, and it will cost more in the city, I’d imagine, even with less actual exposed wall space, given how they were built, and the costs that go with having work done in the more built-up city.

Though you still have to worry about air infiltration from houses on either side (just like water in the basement, these houses are inextricably connected) so you might have to retrofit all walls. And they seem to have been built with no insulation at all at the roof or in the front or back sides. Just stand next to newly-installed double paned windows in a brownstone, even if the were installed tightly (and maybe even some insulation added around them), and feel the cold coming directly through the wall part, not at the windows’ edges.

And then take into account trying to do it in one that was built as flats originally, or a house divided into flats when converted more recently, as someone asked about doing in an 8-flat coop or condo on here recently, and you’re really dealing with a lot of people who have to be willing to spend a lot to tear their units apart and retrofit their buildings sufficiently so as to work with less heat production. And while some run warmer and are willing to set the thermostat lower, it is hard to made that decision for others in the building whose bodies or circumstances may need more heat (I sure need more heat sitting at home now working at my desk, unmoving, when I don’t even get the exercise of running around an office building to get to the bathroom, coffee machine, other peoples’ offices, or outside to get lunch, than I did when I was out of the home all day and most evenings). Or to make that decision for people who might buy the units in the future when people sell and move on. Sure, in a perfect world, we’d all retrofit our homes entirely, but that’s currently an option only available to the fairly wealthy in the city, I’d think.

Master Plvmber | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Well you spend a ridiculous amount of time on this forum and you’ve got a second home, so I guess I took a shot that you’ve got some extra dough.

randolph | 2 years and 6 months ago

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I left my boiler in the basement and still use it for hot water. it sounds like a bomb going off every time it fires and the floor in the room above it shakes, which drove me crazy when it was firing all the time to heat the whole house but luckily that isn’t the case anymore. the heat pumps also will provide cooling in the summer, which the house did not have before. the windows are relatively new and a few owners ago the house was gutted and insulated so no drafts. i also don;t have “buckets of disposable income” (or a tesla).

Master Plvmber | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Not the same thing, I know, but just like no one wants to be the one to say asbestos was the most effective insulating material we may ever know, no one wants to say that heating with heat pumps is not a good solution everywhere. Throwing a 40-year-old, 600-lb boiler along with 2,000 lbs of radiators into a landfill to install a newly manufactured heating system that will require component replacement every 5 years does not put you right with the environment.
This stuff belongs in new construction, sure, but retrofitting a leaky 100 year-old home?
Do you know what every person in that video has in common? They all have buckets of disposable income. Remember: no one buys a Tesla because they don’t have money for gas.

Guest User | 2 years and 6 months ago

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From the ConEd incentive website
Air-Source Heat Pump Incentive Status
Due to tremendous response, we have exhausted funding for air-source heat pump projects and can no longer offer incentives at this time.

randolph | 2 years and 6 months ago

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> @katiekeating
> Do those incentives exist in NYC?
I am not sure, mine were through central hudson and mitsubishi. I would think con ed offers something similar. The installer should know what is available since they are the ones getting paid directly from the utility.

winbrown | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Do those incentives exist in NYC?

randolph | 2 years and 6 months ago

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to get the incentives i had to deactivate my boiler which basically meant cutting and capping the pipes that led to the radiators…..but they left all the pipes so i could easily have it all put back together BUT so far i am pleased with how well they are heating the space. it just isnt as cheap as i had hoped

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 6 months ago

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BayRidge, That’s a shame. What system did you get? Was it sized correctly? I was so skeptical of the mini-splits being able to heat our entire house and was beyond pleasantly surprised at how well they work. We haven’t fired up the oil heat once yet this winter and not sure that we’ll ever look back.

JohnHancock | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Part 2.
Gas stoves and electric cooking!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgnIR18Te5Y&ab_channel=PBSNewsHour

carlinepierre27 | 2 years and 6 months ago

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We put in mini-splits for A/C in 2020 and at the beginning of winter I used the units to heat the house for a few weeks. I must say, I never felt warm. Having air blowing always made the house feel drafty. After a couple of weeks, I gave up and switched on our old gas-fired steam boiler. So cozy to have our steam radiators back on line. NYS was giving incentives to remove the boiler and I am so glad I didn’t take the bait.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Also, I’ve given a lot of weight to the fact that I am no longer combusting what is basically diesel fuel in the basement of my home to heat it. Not sure I can quantify how much that’s worth in dollars, but it’s an added piece of mind for me during the months when the electricity bills come in higher than anticipated.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Got it. I just googled some of the smaller units and see what you mean. Probably only 60% the size of my smaller one and my bigger one is basically a “double” unit stacked on top of each other. Good luck with the power consumption monitoring. You might also want to look into solar options where they can finance the cost based on how much utility energy you save. It makes solar projects affordable and you can also roll in any roof repairs.

randolph | 2 years and 6 months ago

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this is a house upstate and they sit behind the bushes and the side of the house you don’t really see, and they are small so you really don’t notice them. i think a larger, tall condenser would be uglier plus you would need more lines running all over and around the siding. i will post some photos once i can find them.

as for usage i will see if central hudson has such an app but i doubt it, they seem very behind the curve on these things.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 6 months ago

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@randolph, interesting. Seems overkill tbh and I couldn’t imagine a scenario where I have six outdoor condensers around my home but I’m sure they had their reasons. Re monitoring usage, check with your utility. Coned for example has an app that allows you to monitor real-time usage by hour, day, week, etc. I can tell that during full heat loads with all my indoor units cranked up to 71, I’m peaking at below 1.6 kWh, which is pretty remarkable for the heat output we’re getting. In fact, my old electric clothes dryer is the biggest energy suck and I can look at the graph and tell you exactly when we had it running. The condensers on the other hand run at a fairly consistent rate that fluctuates with the outdoor temp.

randolph | 2 years and 6 months ago

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> @twentypercentofx
> What is your peak Kw/hr utilization with this set-up on the coldest of days?
I am not sure how to find out this information, my monthly bill only tells me total khw used and the last bill i think is high because the previous month’s bill was off an estimated reading that was low. i am hoping that the bill for january is actual so i can get a better sense of monthy consumption.

the company i went with advised that having a dedicated condenser for each indoor unit would be more efficient vs. a larger condenser and a junction box going to several indoor units. the also said it would offer some peace of mind – if one condenser has a malfunction only that room would go down rather than the whole house.

carolina-moscoso | 2 years and 6 months ago

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Randolph, We’ve been running our new mini-split system in lieu of oil-based forced hot air and agree with your observation that the cost with electric is either slightly higher or a wash assuming you got a good price on oil this year. It’s a hard math equation because the electricity prices fluctuate so damn much, but try to focus on total Kw/hr utilization. I am impressed at how efficient these units are. The real long-term solution, as you suggest, is solar. Just curious but why do you have each indoor unit paired with its own condenser. I’m running a 70 BTU system off two condensers. What is your peak Kw/hr utilization with this set-up on the coldest of days?

chemosphere | 2 years and 6 months ago

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so for geothermal you can’t do it in an attached rowhouse backyard, right? because you can’t get the drills into the yard? so it’s got to be in the front of the house? That’s what I’m wondering about, the legality of drilling a hole down 100 ft in front of your house.