How should one prove that a wood burning fireplace is up to code?

Need help – We have 3 wood burning fireplaces in our apartment. Last winter the building asked the cooperators to stop using all fireplaces because of complaints of smoke leakage. We want to repair our fireplaces (rebrick, add ceramic sealant and exhaust fan to flue – there are no cracks or holes in our flue), however the building wants to know if we are going to be “up to code”.
#1 – Given that the building is a pre-war building, is the new 2020 fireplace and chimney code applicable or since we are grandfathered in we don’t need to meet all requirements as per the latest code (20″ firebox depth as an example)?
#2 – Once we repair the fireplace, outside of the “smoke test” is there a way to show that the fireplace is “up to code” or in good working condition?
Thanks in advance

nsallison

in General Discussion 2 years ago

12

Please log in, in order to post replies!

12 replies

Newest Oldest

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5076 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4895 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

i hope you are correct brokelin.

it would help to know if this language were put in writing or if it were spoken.

brokelin | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5075 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5074 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "90954"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(8) "brokelin"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BukARi5fCxcdKRwwLKRkiawWixLEUK/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(8) "brokelin"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(17) "annindc@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(23) "/forums/users/brokelin/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:32:08"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(8) "brokelin"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(90954)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

So, yeah, the board could be playing games, or it could just be trying to address the claims of smoke leakage. So they may be using the term “up to code” not in the technical sense, but in the sense of “up to par, or safe.” Knowing if the board consulted counsel before making this demand would be useful, to know if they are making the demand in a legal sense, or just talking in the not precise way that volunteer board managers talk sometimes. It is perfectly legit to ask all the coopers to have their fireplaces checked to see if there is any work needed, which repairs might address the problem. Having an evaluation by a fireplace company might satisfy the board, especially if any expert repairs put a stop to the smoke leakage problem.

Though if reading this site has taught me anything, it is that there might be smoke or heat leakage anyway, especially if the building is a brownstone, or a small building with brownstone-like construction (that is, not a lar ger, solid, thick, brick prewar building.) Because the smoke leakage that bothers someone(s) is the issue the board is attempting to address here, not someone’s right to use a fireplace.

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5073 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5077 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I like that. That is the way this should go. I would have more faith in the board if they had stated “inspected by a…..to the 1938 code”.

The loose language seems suspect. It almost seems as if they do not want people using the fire places at all but are not ready for the challenge if they ban them outright. These fire places probably add a lot of value to a unit, so an outright ban would hurt every unit owner who has a fire place including board members.

Op, that does not change what i now know about these situations in coops.

cate | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5076 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5078 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "176696"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(4) "cate"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(63) "$wp$2y$10$4JNbGAK5cKoEp6kzsYVSBO7oMZphxvnQPCDInpVARCm3B1Dj6U75i"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(4) "cate"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "cate@brownstoner.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:24:59"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "Cate Corcoran"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(176696)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(13) "administrator"
    [1]=>
    string(6) "editor"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(191) {
    ["switch_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["activate_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_files"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["moderate_comments"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_categories"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_links"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["upload_files"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["import"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["unfiltered_html"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_10"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_9"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_8"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_7"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_6"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_5"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_4"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_3"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_2"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_1"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["create_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["unfiltered_upload"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_dashboard"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_core"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["list_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["remove_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["promote_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_theme_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["export"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Gallery overview"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Use TinyMCE"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Upload images"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage tags"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage others gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Edit album"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change style"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_users_notify"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_single_user"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_multiple_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_user_groups"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Attach Interface"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["copy_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["ure_edit_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_manage_options"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_reset_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["edit_ads_txt"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_titles"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_sitemap"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_404_monitor"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_link_builder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_redirections"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_role_manager"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_search_console"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_site_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_advanced"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_snippet"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_social"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_admin_bar"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_analytics"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

There likely isn’t a “code” in the sense the co-op board thinks there is. But I would start by talking to a licensed chimney company. Such companies also work on chimneys for gas- and oil-fired boilers and hot water heaters, which seem to have more code requirements. The OP needn’t proceed with any actual work until the co-op agrees it meets their requirements. In fact, the co-op board likely has to approve any such work in the first place anyway.

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5075 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5079 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I suspect these fireplace contractors are licensed home improvement contractors. Home improvement contractors are not competency tested in the same way plumbers and electricians are. For this reason, i have never been comfortable (as an hic) saying what is to code and what is not to code and question whether the courts would accept the word of an hic and if this board will. Sure, op can try. But what happens when they charge him thousands to bring these fireplaces up to their version of the 1938 code and the board does not accept that or says they meant the 2022 code? What is op’s next move?

I suspect the board is going to play a game of chess and op must know his moves before he spends tpo much money.

Op, i know something that could sink this where it sits. For your benefit, i won’t post it here, but if you call me, i will tell you what it is-

Steve
Brownstonehomeinspection.com

cate | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5077 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5080 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "176696"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(4) "cate"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(63) "$wp$2y$10$4JNbGAK5cKoEp6kzsYVSBO7oMZphxvnQPCDInpVARCm3B1Dj6U75i"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(4) "cate"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "cate@brownstoner.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:24:59"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "Cate Corcoran"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(176696)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(13) "administrator"
    [1]=>
    string(6) "editor"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(191) {
    ["switch_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["activate_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_files"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["moderate_comments"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_categories"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_links"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["upload_files"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["import"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["unfiltered_html"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_10"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_9"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_8"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_7"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_6"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_5"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_4"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_3"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_2"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_1"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["create_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["unfiltered_upload"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_dashboard"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_core"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["list_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["remove_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["promote_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_theme_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["export"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Gallery overview"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Use TinyMCE"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Upload images"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage tags"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage others gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Edit album"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change style"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_users_notify"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_single_user"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_multiple_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_user_groups"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Attach Interface"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["copy_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["ure_edit_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_manage_options"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_reset_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["edit_ads_txt"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_titles"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_sitemap"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_404_monitor"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_link_builder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_redirections"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_role_manager"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_search_console"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_site_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_advanced"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_snippet"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_social"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_admin_bar"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_analytics"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I agree you should talk to a licensed chimney company that deals with old fireplaces in Brooklyn and see what they recommend. They will know if it’s to code or not. It’s important that the box be appropriate for burning wood (as opposed to gas or coal) and that the chimney is lined with the right kind of liner and everything is in sound condition. They will evaluate all that.

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5079 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5076 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

There is a property manager on here named Jeremy and i am sure he could say something to your situation. Short of some comments from him or others in this field:

do your due diligence now before you spend any money: you need to find out what code they will rely on. if you do not want to ask them that question (and i would not want to if i were you) and you live in a prewar and you want to try to satisfy them by complying to their loosely worded request, before you spend a lot of money (fixing the fire places) and put yourself in a position where this could end up in court, you will want to find out what building code the courts would force the board to rely on if they took you to court. with any luck it would be the 1938 and before you go further, you will see that the fireplaces meet the 1938 code.

i did call a fireplace/chimney co this morning and they said they can perform a safety inspection and provide you with a written report. i suppose if your board is sincere and not playing games, they will accept that. if they are playing games, they will move the goal posts and now tell you the inspection must be conducted by a …….

I would look on line and find cases where coops have denied owners the use of amenities and see where those cases have gone. also, you might very well find some instances in NYC where a condo board got sued for denying owners the use of their fire places. study those and see what the circumstances were and how they were decided. these cases sometimes come down to very specific and minute details.

Understand where my stance is coming from: this board has probably knowingly issued a loosely worded or ambiguous request of this owner. i have seen a board do this with things they knew they could not enforce (and were hoping for voluntary compliance on) or when they were being punitive. Basically, they are not trying to help the op; most likely they will play this game with him until they tire him out and he gives up.

i would like to know what Jeremy Kilts has to say about this even if he thinks i am wrong about some of all of it-

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5080 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5075 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

So i called an engineer who i have recently come in contact with. He said it will be impossible to get someone to say something is built correctly to an old code like that.

In so far as what leeb says, you can try that but my thinking is that the board will find some reason to deny that.

If they will take a home inspector’s word that there are no defects and you want to call me, i’ll take more training classes. But i cannot say that something works correctly. I cannot make that claim and we cannot claim it will continue to work.

Guest User | 2 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "202864"

This is a repair and not so much an arch/eng job. Call one of the recommended chimney places and ask them what they recommend.

nsallison | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4847 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4838 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "190892"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "nsallison"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B6XSRp6vpP2r2XSU9r8XMIu/k/TwtG1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "nsallison"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "nsallison@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2023-06-27 00:44:26"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(190892)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

@homeinspector thank you very much. You are right, whether or not the fireplaces are in good working condition or not, I think this is a difficult battle with the board if the board has already made up their mind. In terms of getting a letter from an architect or engineer, that’s a great idea. Good news is we are willing to do what it takes to ensure fireplace is safe and not leaking any smoke, so hopefully the architect/Engineer feels comfortable signing.
Do you have any architect/engineer in mind who would be familiar with this that we can engage?
Thanks so much again for your help!

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 2 years ago

string(1) "2"
object(WP_User)#4847 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5081 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(3) "779"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "RobertGMarvin"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "RobertGMarvin"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(40) "64df18426207ddf12f1789eba7eabd04a9c3f615"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2007-08-10 18:03:45"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "Bob Marvin"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(779)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Why not just use an alcohol log?

justinromeu26 | 2 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5077 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5071 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "justinromeu26@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189743)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I know you realize that most buildings are grandfathered but there are exceptions. if a building is rehabbed to a certain extent the DOB sometimes require it be brought up to a later code. so if that kind of reno was done and if the fire places were not brought up with all the rest as they were seen as a “novelty”, they may not be up to code (and the board may know this and may know they are not up to code; if this is the case, they are playing a game). the other issue is not what the DOB’s interpretation of what is grandfathered or is not grandfathered is, but your own board’s interpretation and how far they want to go with this with you. If the board has simply decided they don’t want anyone using fireplaces (without saying so per se), they are going to interpret this how ever they want so long as they get their goal (and i have sat in board meetings where the board wanted to change something without taking a position on an issue – so they simply make rules that are impossible to comply with; i can think of a very good reason why they would want do that here; i want to see if anyone else says it).

Once you find out what code you are working off of (and if i were you i would be trying to use the earliest, 1938) you will have to get an architect or engineer say it is to code. i am not sure how willing a licensed professional would be signing something to say it was possibly built to a code that has not been relied regularly since the next code came out in 1968. i will say something worse – if the fireplaces do not meet the 1938 code and you have to say to an architect or engineer “but that was the way they did it in 18??”, i cannot see them putting their signature on it.

I would bet money now that if you asked the board what code has to be followed, they would say the most recent.

in so far as general safety (in “good working condition”), i am not sure if there is any sort of certified individual who can say it and would sign their name to that in an older building. who is that person and if there is some certified individual, will the board accept their word?

It sounds like the board has to clarify a few things here. otherwise you might run around and spend money only to watch them move the goal posts.

btw, there are classes available to home inspectors like myself on how to inspect stoves, fireplaces and chimneys. I am going to take these classes but if I were to inspect a fireplace, i would only be allowed to identify what i see as “defects” and not whether it is in “good working order” because something can happen 5 minutes after lighting a fire in that changes everything.

Steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com