HELP WITH EXISTING MUD ROOM PROOF FOR DOB FILING

I’m am stuck in the permit application process trying to prove the legal interior condition of a small mud room out the back of my brownstone in order to receive Alt-2 permit for a simple interior renovation of other parts of the house. No work at all is being performed on said space, but the inspector wants “legal documents showing interior condition”. Can anyone help explain where to find such a thing? The house is from late 1880s, a standard 2 story brownstone, and appears with the mud room extension on all city Belcher Sanborn maps from 1880, 1907 and 1929. I cannot find an iCard online for the property. The house was sold with no as-built documents or plans. Does anyone know how to prove interior existing conditions of the mud room? This seems like an impossible situation! Thank you all

Guest User | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Jasperrose11 | 4 years and 6 months ago

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As noted by Urbandad these features usually aren’t highlighted in early ads or newspaper accounts of construction but if you need to do the hunting yourself it is worth a look at the Brooklyn Eagle online archives {https://bklyn.newspapers.com/search/} as you never know what you can find. If one of a row likely built at the same time hunt for others in the row too, much like, as suggested, you would need to do for a DOB folder pull. It’s surprising how much can turn up, but it takes time and patience to search every variant of the street name and follow the trail.

hkapstein | 4 years and 6 months ago

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So you say “we cannot find anything else on HPD or DOB site”. Does that mean that you have not requested the physical DOB folder or microfilm at the DOB? If you have not and you decide to do it, it might be smart to pull the neighboring houses, or all houses that look like they were built in a group, because as Cate discussed, sometimes the documents are filed with another house. Alternatively you might find that another house, built with an identical or similar layout, has a document showing it had a mudroom that was pre-zoning, and that might sway the examiner.

Cate, I believe what the examiner wants to see is whether the extension was historically used as a shed/outbuilding or as an interior part of the house. If the latter can be established, it would not be necessary to undergo the zoning exam process, increase the FAR of the house, and hire a site superindent during the construction as well as deal with a number of other onerous requirements.

cate | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Thanks. Are you working with an architect or expediter who could clarify their request? “Official record that shows the legal interior layout” or “condition” seems to suggest, as you say, they are interested in either a DOB record or an HPD record. Usually the mudrooms are small and empty. Sometimes they are larger and contain plumbing and heating and laundry. I have also seen bathrooms expanded into mudrooms, and some are even used as bedrooms. Why would any of this be relevant to your Alt-2? Are they trying to suggest you have an illegal extension and require you to remedy the condition before you can get your permit for the Alt-2?

Guest User | 4 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "203144"

Thank you, apparently it seems the Sanborn maps were not enough proof, and we cannot find anything else on HPD or DOB site. I found tax photographs of the front of the house from 1940 and a block map from 1907 showing the extension clearly marked as timber frame. However nothing seems to meet the request for “official record that shows the legal interior layout” of the mud room. Hoping not to have to go to PER11 due to time constraints, but thank you for the information. This is maddening for such a simple renovation project!

cate | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Are they asking you for the current interior conditions? Would photographs suffice? It doesn’t seem like they are asking you to prove the mudroom was original to the house, (if they are, the Sanborn map shows it), nor what was in the mudroom at the time of construction, but if they want the latter, the only evidence of that would be the original building plans. You could see if this is in the file for the house or for the king house in the row (try the first one or the last one) but it’s a long shot.

hkapstein | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Have the folder and microfilm pulled from the DOB archives. You can request this at the window, maybe also online now. Be ready to take the microfilm to one of the few remaining places that can do a blowback, there’s one in lower manhattan somewhere. A microfilm inspection lense could be useful if microfilm is located to determine if it is of value.

Assuming this is a bust, try to determine if the architectural features of the extension are consistent with it being used originally as interior space. Is it entered through a steel lintel, or an original brick arch? Is it made of oldschool lumber, or modern dimensional lumber? You can check old newspaper archives for real estate listing, but it’s unlikely they would describe this feature in detail. You could hire brownstone detectives to do research:
https://www.brownstonedetectives.com/ They are good but they can’t find what isn’t there. They might have some more ideas though.

Once you have prepared the best case possible, and if the plan examiner still rejects, make a PER11 request for an appointment with borough commi ssioner. To do this, you fill out a PER11 form from the DOB website, and email it to the appropriate address on the form. Then make your case to the commissioner and see what, if any, evidence would be acceptable.