Heated Sidewalks
Gennady, read the thread and watch the video someone posted. this is not about unknowing homeowners doing things wrong it is about paid predators misleading people.
what i think is “funny” is not that homeowners make mistakes. it is that these paid people knowingly did something wrong and they revealed who they are and used their properties as examples.
I will admit this here: as a contractor, i do not like professionals who mislead people because legitimate and hard working contractors have to “compete” against that misinformation. it makes it harder for people who want to do the right thing to make a living.
andriywww1990
in General Discussion 3 years and 10 months ago
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RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 3 years and 11 months ago
I think that at one time lot lines in NYC extended to the middle of the street. I don’t know when in the 19th Century that stopped and if it applied to the City of Brooklyn as well as NY.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
i wish i had done this here when they did the gas line.
i would have proceeded with this very differently than the guy in the video. Knowing what i know about my service panel, i MIGHT have ordered this stuff without calling an electrician first but that would be risky and since most people do not know how much space they have in their box and do not know how much space a 30 amp (or larger) breaker takes, I would call the electrician FIRST and show that person what i want to install and have them look at the load requirements and TELL ME if it is ok to order it. I would not rely on some customer service rep sitting in Utah or Mexico or India to assume anything about NYC and its codes. Technically, this work has be filed in this city (they may have changed this, maybe the electrician can file it with a monthly report) (i don’t care if people file it, that is not why i am warning them and when adding a circuit in a place like suffolk county a homeowner can do it and have a UL inspector come look at it and approve it) in which case an inspector may want to look in the box and if space is tight, even if you have empty slots, he may say something about “gutter space” (if the box is older and smaller; customers of mine have been told they cannot put hot tubs or central AC in because of gutter space and load issues; they must update first). i might worry that an inspector might visit years later and see this was put in without a permit and raise it as an issue – i have had customers who have had that happen as well – especially with lines that were obviously not in the house when the electricity was first installed). i find it laughable that someone like this who seems to fancy himself as being so smart could be so ignorant as to have no idea as to what can go wrong here by proceeding with this prior to talking to an electrician. Working in commercial buildings, my bosses would have berated me, as a generalist, if i proceeded with something like this without talking to an electrician first. All he had to do was tell the audience “call an electrician first” and take it from there. i have been running lines in places where i have lived and worked for my arc welder(s) (read 40 amp breaker and no 8 wire; i am tired of lifting the wire around) since i was 19 years old and i would NEVER assume that this could proceed until i spoke to an electrician.
Once I got the ok and the materials arrived, i would have the electrician tie the wires for the grids together and at the same time, run the new line to the edge of the sidewalk. even if that did not happen in that order, i would not assume that he can arrive the minute before the pour. i would let the electrician know i would be laying the roll of wire and grids and ask him or her how they would want the cord left (positioned; i would assume next to where the circuit is or will be placed but when dealing with trades it is always better to ask what they want and do what they say; they may have other tips as well and if you ask, they will tell).
there is a company with a 36″ by 20′ matt, all ready to go. i did take a look at the electric load for these and i do not even have the room in my box so i would have been plugging it in and unplugging it or running it off a sub panel which i do not want to install. the example i looked at on line said one matt took a 30 amp breaker. more take more. a 30 amp uses two box spots. this is a lot of juice. i am not sure of how long before the snowfall these have to be on, but we can assume for a few hours. OP may be able to answer.
that guy in the video said he got “lucky” when he found an electrician to take care of this on short notice. Outside of an unforeseen emergency (and when you do this for a living, “unforeseen” is always questioned), i would not want a customer or supervisor to think i got lucky with anything. it comes down the planning and preparation. I hope this guy is not a project manager in real life.
mile | 3 years and 11 months ago
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andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
……….. so the guy in the video vard posted is Bradley Hurtado, someone involved in video production and management and has worked for a place called Big Fish Entertainment. the people who put this heavily produced piece of work together are not stupid and i would assume know exactly what they were doing when they “ordered” the material from Warm Zone “first” and called the electrician later. The house Mr. Hurtado references is in fact his and he has pulled a bunch of permits on it and he knows the process and the headaches; he wants to make the installation of this product sound that simple; we all know nothing is that simple. I would call these people “predators”, including Mr Hurtado and i say that because these people are hoping that unknowing consumers – senior citizens and first time home buyers will buy this product and only find out later that they cannot install it (period) or cannot install it without great expense. i have not checked what Warm Zone’s return policy is and am afraid to because i might not like what i find.
….i am sorry, i kn ow i went on in the reply above (i am writing this stuff and leaving for work with little thought or editing), but that a professional would produce something like this and try to market something to people who might not know otherwise is a big part of the problem with the internet. He could have refused to this outright or edited it to warn people that doing anything like this in nyc (at least safely and legally) is NEVER that easy-
these systems draw a lot of electricity and anyone considering one MUST call an electrician first.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
@livingthedream told us it wasn’t using as much electricity as we’d think…At this point I’m confused as to what to believe till someone posts some numbers. Concrete is easier to heat up than a thick bluestone sidewalk.
I hope a contracting company decides to offer this as a service so people don’t do it on their own which can be risky sometimes.
lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 11 months ago
I am not going to watch an entire 20 minute video but it seems very much like electric floor heating panels you can put in a bathroom. Contractors can do it, but they can also mess it up.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
Contractors can mess it up. Yes it’s similar to the ones in a bathroom. WarmZone, Warmly Yours etc all sell the mat. If a contractor is doing it regularly and offering it as a service we’d hope they would know what they are doing.
stevecym | 3 years and 11 months ago
Vard, I am a contractor. I am not a licensed electrician. The point I am trying to make in my reply above is that I have loads of experience, including formal lectrical training, running circuits, hiring electricians and estimating projects, including determining wire size, etc. Under trained professionals and always approved and performed by a licensed pro, when dealing with homeowners. What I am saying is I am very confident in my knowledge (every time I want to weld I pop two breaker out and put a 40 amp in) and in no way, even in my own house, would I proceed without having a licensed electrician tell me what I can order before I ordered it.
I am dealing with a customer now who had “contractors” do a load of things that are screwed up, some downright dangerous and illegal. Unfortunately there are too many “contractors” in this city willing to chance that they can do something without even knowing to question what can go wrong and these people are happy to take your money and tell us how great they are and none of these people mention “risks” out of fear of losing a job.
What is troubling about that video is that the actor presents himself as part of a community, brooklyn, and even uses that information as a way to trade on it, to sell this product (this guy is being paid, no doubt) through his experience with his house, without warning people of something very risky, that could cost someone a lot of money and needs a lot of planning. Any addition to a service panel requires planning. By the work being done on this man’s house, the permits he has pulled, etc, he knows that by saying he called an electrician a few minutes before the poor, that he is withholding very pertinent information from homeowners in a very deliberate manner.
It’s bad enough that unsuspecting homeowners have to worry about hiring contractors who would install a bathroom heating mat or the sidewalk grid when they have no idea that we have to stir paint, prime bare walls and wood, ground electrical circuits, and should not create a 220v line by combining power from two different circuits on two different breakers on different poles, but now this idiot come on and propagates this behavior.
Vard, I am not criticizing you for posting the video. I enjoyed it. I think it is a great tool to use to point out how things go wrong in this city and how there are many layers of inept, shoddy, and down right predatory people marketing and installing product to unknowing and unsuspecting homeowners.
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
I have a few hot water based sidewalk snow melting systems operating in the field. Any snow melting system is environmentally black but they probably make up for that in safety. [IMG_8200](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:92sg:img_8200.jpg.jpg)
FWIW, you’re supposed to notify the city you’re installing something in their sidewalk and they’re supposed to calculate the square footage of your product and charge you rent. True story.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
Steve I did not think you were criticizing. I was responding to Chris’s comment. I was agreeing with him that not all GCs understand how to install the system.
Nice photo MP. Re rent to the city, it was interesting that the city workers were aware of Mr. Hurtado’s plan and didn’t say anything. Is a hot water system better than electric? I thought it was supposed to be glycol.
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
@vard01 It’s a water-glycol mixture. I don’t know many details about the rent thing except that the city calculated the area taken up by the tubing and bills him annually for personal use of the sidewalk space.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
i reacted to “if a contractor is doing this regularly they should know what they are doing”. it is unending what “contractor’s” today screw up. i would not leave anything like this to a “contractor” but would rely on an electrician for the electric stuff and a heating or boiler installation person for the liquid stuff. when people say “contractor” i am thinking of HIC’s, not GC’s or licensed trades. it is important to reinforce on this board that an HIC might not know ANYTHING about ANYTHING and has not been tested on ANYTHING.
years ago on the coast of NC we had exposed risers to elevated beach front condos. we needed some heat tape on those pipes in case we ever had a cold spell and i had the electrician run circuits to each riser and then i wrapped the pipes in the tape and put the 120 volt plugs on them , with built in breakers, and end caps and away we went. we switched them on only when it got cold. the electric strips looked just like the strips that make this grid up and someone can probably take that electric strip – I seem to recall it com ing in 100′ foot rolls from a place like Grainger – and make their own grids. the product is still around. this was simple, simple stuff and i bet it is exactly what these manufacturers are doing. i could make these up here and sell them by buying the heat strips/tape.
the guy in the video is unbelievable. so not only has he told the world he has done something without filing for a permit but he has told the world that he put something in that he should be paying rent to the city on. look, all of us have broken building codes and done something we should have not done. but we do not climb on the empire state building and announce it. its the arrogance to announce something like this in spite of the codes and laws and lead others to believe that this is ok.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
OP are you paying rent to the city? I will wait to comment till someone points me to the rules on a city web site.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
vard, master plumber rarely says something that is not correct. i would assume it is true. though if you want me to confirm it because you want to beat up on the guy in the video with me, i will look it up. it sounds like something the city would do to penalize someone who does something that will benefit their neighborhood.
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
MP doesn’t say things lightly so with you, on that. I am surprised that the city workers said nothing.
For all we know the gentleman could be paying rent. I don’t want to rabidly jump to conclusions without knowing the rules or whether he’s paying the city.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
https://www.brownstoner.com/forum/#!/driveways-patios-sidewalks-and-steps:b159432
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 11 months ago
It appears that there may be some overlap between Brad Hurtado and a relation of OP’s. Both mention warm zone. we now know that brad is involved in video production. OP is related to someone who works in video production and like Brad, OP did not go through the hassle of getting the permit for the electric.
Is NYC truly this small of a town and are both the heating grid industry and video production industry this small and is there more than coincidence here?
i do not care if someone pulls a permit or not. i do not care what people do illegal in their house so long as it will not kill someone. it is the praying on unknowing homeowners i do not like and i cannot tell you how many times i have been called to a house to either install something or fix something that someone was told by some marketing idiot that it would work and it did not. it happens with lock sets all the time. the electrical stuff is much more serious and costly.
good work vard. good call.
Master Plvmber | 3 years and 11 months ago
@vard01 Answering your question about electric vs hot water/glycol mixture, I’ll offer that electric is far simpler to install and much less costly to purchase all the stuff to make it work. The trade-off is that, just like any resistance heater, the heating elements are destined to fail at some point. You’re essentially warming your sidewalk with the technology of a toaster.
By comparison, a hydronic snow melting system will last indefinitely so long as the PEX or other tubing being used maintains its integrity, which, when encased in concrete, ought to be a really really long time. Kinda like forever. Hydronic systems are far more flexible than electric and there’s likely more heat to be gained from a boiler than may be available in a typical home’s electrical service. All electric heat takes a lot of energy to be effective.
With hydronic heat, operating water temperature, flow rate, outdoor reset, and other technology and control strategies are used to maximize efficiency and efficacy.