Gas vs. Heat Pump Conversion

Re the 20K estimate, I presume this includes a new gas-fired boiler, the new separate gas line (wait a sec, is this even available now?), and removing the oil boiler but NOT new radiators or pipes NOR any chimney changes. You would be wise to get a chimney expert to check out the chimney first and see if it will need anything for a new gas-fired boiler.

cate

in General Discussion 3 years and 1 month ago

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mofish | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Hello Everyone – We have a 4 story brownstone with two duplex apartments that has an ancient oil boiler. We need a new system and we are trying to decide between gas or heat pumps. For a gas conversion + removal of the old system we were quoted ~$20k and ~$45K (after rebate) for a heat pump system + removal of the old system with 10 units (5 per duplex apartment). We haven’t made any major insulation investments. Gas is certainly the cheaper route, but we’d like to move towards a more sustainable future so we are considering the electric option.

My questions are 1) does anyone have a similar sized electric heating system and would be willing to share the monthly electric costs? 2) does anyone have any experience with long term maintenance of an electric system?

We are open to the extra cost for installation, but we are concerned that we will also be paying a higher monthly energy cost AND we’ll have to spend a lot more money over time to maintain the system.

Lurker | 3 years and 1 month ago

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I’m sure you’ll get many comments, but my understanding is that in our locale heat pumps tend to not be not powerful enough for the coldest weather we get, depending on your home’s insulation, windows, exposure etc. And that since nat gas is so cheap and electricity relatively expensive, at times there are some really big electricity bills. I don’t own and only have anecdotal evidence and had also looked into heat pump myself and decided against.

stevecym | 3 years and 1 month ago

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There has been at lot written about this on here. As to what lurker is saying, i once lived on coastal north carolina where heat pumps are quite popular. Even on cold winter nights down there, the auxiliary electric heat came on and when that was on, the electric meter spun like a fan.

There is something else i learned on this board. I turn the heat way down at night and when we are out during the day. When i had a heat pump. I was always cold. Here, i turn the steam heat on and an hour later the house is warm. Someone on here said the issue with heat pumps is they heat slowly over time and maintain. No blast of heat as with a steam radiator. No turning a heat pump on and an hour later the house or apartment is warm. I don’t miss the heat pump.

If you look back a few months you will find the other comments about the heat pump.

stevecym | 3 years and 1 month ago

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And to what i said above about heat pumps, my experience with them dates from the 1980s and early 90s. Technologically, a lot can change in 30 years. But from what people like lurker say, i do not think that is the case.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 3 years and 1 month ago

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It certainly has changed. Back in the ‘80s a neighbor was selling heat pumps in conjunction with some sort of ConEd pilot program. The catch was that you had to disable your gas or oil system and use electric resistance heat when the temperatures dropped too low for the heat pump to work. It was prohibitively expensive and AFAIK all the systems ended up as useless junk on the buyers’ roofs.

nyc_sport | 3 years and 1 month ago

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$20K for a full new system gas conversion in a four story, presumably multi-zoned system sounds very cheap

ellenlourie | 3 years and 1 month ago

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The residential heat pump chillers would be a very good option with radiant floors. they also can be used for radiant cooling and domestic hot water generation as well. You can also set up micro CHP as an alternative, check out Enviropower, it will provide heat, domestic hot water, and electricity. But works on gas.

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Please send your 20K Oil to Gas Conversion company this way…I have some questions for them!

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Please send your 20K Oil to Gas Conversion company this way…I have some questions for them!

Guest User | 3 years and 1 month ago

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20 k seems impossibly low for a legitimate ( filed and inspected, oil tank removed legally i with a fire dept letter, chimney inspection by engineer, requisite cleaning or lining, DOB and boiler division filing and inspection, upgrade of gas service, etc) … at least 30k on a sunny day

Guest User | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Gennedy… the Eviropower unit looks interesting but there appears to be no pricing info available…. Also I find it a bit disturbing that the website predicts a lifespan for the units of only 10 years….I would be a bit leery considering the last new thing (HE boilers) has proved costly in terms of service calls and maintenance ( I just saw a 10 year old Buderus fail due to a failed heat exchanger

ellenlourie | 3 years and 1 month ago

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There is contact info on their site. Better contact them. Regarding the life span of the HE boilers, we are servicing Viessmann boilers which are 20 plus years old, and before us, no one laid a hand on them. They are in fantastic shape after we do maintenance and bring them in order.

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Modern heat pumps are absolutely an option in the NYC area. We had ours installed mid-winter and switched the boiler off at the beginning of February and haven’t looked back. Bonuses: It’s much quieter and our heating costs dropped substantially, and that’s with a couple nights in the teens. You definitely need a system rated for cold weather (we have Mitsubishi Hyper Heat). And having modern windows and good insulation makes it much more effective. But I think it’s well worth it and will be wonderful in the summer, too.

Guest User | 3 years and 1 month ago

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gennady..i have to agree with you regarding viessmann … they are the gold standard and can last forever.

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Without proper insulation heatpumps will simply not provide enough heat in the depths of winter in NYC area. I’ve has Mitsubish Hyper Heat system for 8 years and NEVER feel warm Dec-Mar in our three floor brownstone.

The simple reason is … heatpumps blow at maybe 120 degrees at the air-handler (blower) while forced air will blow 160-180 degrees… By the time the heatpump’s air hits the center of he room it may be 90 degrees.. Less than the temperature of your skin…. so the although “heated” feels cold.

We are going to swap our heatpump only system with a hybrid-system:

Heat the parlour and basement with 64K btu of forced air, and heat the top floor only with the heatpumps.

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Brownstones also tend to have unique layouts (like high ceilings) which can be the death of a HeatPump that is not properly designed…

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Brownstones also tend to have unique layouts (like high ceilings) which can be the death of a HeatPump that is not properly designed…

Master Plvmber | 3 years and 1 month ago

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@eman137 and @gennady, I like Viessmann very much but they are not well represented or supported in our area. I installed 12 units in 4 big-money addresses in the past 4 years and have had many dealings with the company lately. If I need something from them I immediately go to a neighboring state’s field rep, which they don’t like, but it’s the only way to get something done with them. If you tell me you’re not having this same experience I won’t believe you.

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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The other basic problem with a heat pump ONLY solution in this area is that they (the airhandlers) runs CONTINUOUSLY if you don’t have “proper” insulation…. And believe me, none of the pre-1920 brownstones have enough insulation, and most can NOT be retrofitted with the correct insulation.

The airhandlers use very little electricity themselves, but no matter how large, just can’t heat a rom with 114” ceilings and large windows.