Gas vs. Heat Pump Conversion

Hello Everyone – We have a 4 story brownstone with two duplex apartments that has an ancient oil boiler. We need a new system and we are trying to decide between gas or heat pumps. For a gas conversion + removal of the old system we were quoted ~$20k and ~$45K (after rebate) for a heat pump system + removal of the old system with 10 units (5 per duplex apartment). We haven’t made any major insulation investments. Gas is certainly the cheaper route, but we’d like to move towards a more sustainable future so we are considering the electric option.

My questions are 1) does anyone have a similar sized electric heating system and would be willing to share the monthly electric costs? 2) does anyone have any experience with long term maintenance of an electric system?

We are open to the extra cost for installation, but we are concerned that we will also be paying a higher monthly energy cost AND we’ll have to spend a lot more money over time to maintain the system.

mofish

in General Discussion 3 years and 1 month ago

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cate | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Re the 20K estimate, I presume this includes a new gas-fired boiler, the new separate gas line (wait a sec, is this even available now?), and removing the oil boiler but NOT new radiators or pipes NOR any chimney changes. You would be wise to get a chimney expert to check out the chimney first and see if it will need anything for a new gas-fired boiler.

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Subtracting hot water and cooking, we paid about $300/month peak to heat 3 floors with 2700sf using gas. With the heat pump it was a bit over $100 added to our electric, maybe $150. I don’t feel l that’s too out of line with others AFAIK but that’s anecdotal.

Lurker | 3 years and 1 month ago

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We don’t have AC, so points in the favor of heat pump, but jeez alexwithak, I don’t know what your final bill after a $200 drop but if you’re paying anywhere near hundreds for heat or AC per month in a well-insulated building then something doesn’t seem right? With a modcon system in a 3 story rowouse our heat is set at 73F 24/7 and we pay 180 at peak, for jan/feb, and far less for other months. Not to make it a pissing contest about heating bills but just noting, since our system isn’t particularly special

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Re cost all I can say is that in January we were on gas-fired steam heat and in February we were on heat pumps and our electric+gas bill total dropped by $200. The months had similar average temps and we kept the indoor daytime temp at about 67 for both. (Of course the heat pumps allowed us to turn some unoccupied rooms waaay down at night.) No other major changes in our electrical consumption. See all my other caveats above about insulation, etc, but for us it saved a nice chunk of change. For sure it’s a different type of heat that may not be everyone’s cup of tea.

Master Plvmber | 3 years and 1 month ago

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I’ve never been in a house where people keep a thermostat set above 72° in heating mode, so the idea that heatpumps fall short only under circumstances of extreme demand is not valid. They’re well known to be a problem in our climate. At some point, to make up for their shortcomings, they become electric heaters and become expensive to run. Like the cost of cooling a house in summer. But, one can certainly make the valid argument that if you’re not looking for a lot of heat, then heat pumps could be the system for you. So, carry on if that’s your case.
That said, not all heat is created equal and we humans are creatures of habit. So, if you’ve grown accustomed to the deeply warming pulses of steam or hot water-based heating, then you might not like the different quality and cost of heat you get from heat pumps.
I get to have this conversation several times per year with people who just had to tear out their tank-type water heater with extreme prejudice to have a tankless/instantaneous water heater installed.

jrs84o | 3 years and 1 month ago

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One other point…

As Alexwithak points out.. keep your existing system for a supplement or back up. That means, if you currently have a forced air system DO NOT USE THE SAME WALL CHANNELS to run the heatpump lines through!

I’m certain some contractors take the easy route and push the lines through existing channels once the furnace has been disconnected. In an old lathe and plaster house that’s would save a ton of work… do NOT be tempted, and make sure you know where your contractor will run the lines.

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Growing up my parents kept our hydronic heating system set to like 60 in the winter to keep the gas bill down, so they prepared me for a heat pump system and then some! Thankfully our system kept us closer to 67-68.

If you’re in a position to keep your old heating system as backup/supplement that can be a good way to go. We took advantage of a clean energy rebate program that subsidized a sizable portion of the install but were required to remove our boiler. We wanted to get rid of the radiators anyway and were happy the day we turned off the boiler to be rid of the constant hiss, but depending on your situation leaving it in place for occasional use is an option. If your boiler is toast and a hybrid forced air/heat pump setup is too pricey, you can supplement with electric panel or baseboard heaters where needed. We do have one small room that was impractical to install a blower in that we need a heater for.

On the topic of rebates, I’ll add that if you decide you are willing to go all in on a heat pump, there are lots of ways to defray the cost and they’re not alway s easy to find. The one we participated in was very generous and not something we would have found on our own. A contractor friend told us about it and it’s all handled by the HVAC contractor. Point is, when you get quotes be sure to ask about available rebates. Ours was through ConEd and completely handled by our installer.

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Agree completely with alexwithak.

So much of HVAC can be boiled down to personal “perception” of what one might think is cool or hot.

My wife is always cold and loves hot weather, I’m the opposite a d can live with a 72 degree room if I wear a sweater.

If you are “used to” steam heat or forced air (say, if you are a apartment dweller buying your first house) you will have a hard time with heatpumps, which will heat a room nicely to 70 or 75 degrees or more, but remember your skin temperature is 95-97 degrees.. so any air being blown on your body from the airhandler will “feel like” a cold breeze.

This is the one factor I wish I had known before installing the Mitsubishi’s.

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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I will concede to octopus that a heat pump system isn’t going to make it *hot* in your home in winter. If you want it to be 75+ degrees, well then it’s not for you. But even when it was in the teens this winter we were perfectly comfortable in the high 60s in our 100yo rowhouse with 10ft ceilings. Again, insulation and windows make a big difference. We have newer windows and blown-in insulation in the attic crawlspace. I would strongly advise doing those things. It can be done and is especially effective in an attached rowhouse if that’s what you have. You’re basically already well-insulated on either side if that’s the case. Fully detached may be trickier.

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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I just wanted to add.. In the summer the airhandlers themselves ARE capable of removing the humidity out of the room which creates a nice cool sensation without the extra costs of running the outside unit and this is a VERY cost effective solution in the shoulder and cooling seasons.

I’m debating whether running a whole-house-fan up through the air shaft would provide the same cooling effect?

Just a thought.

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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The other basic problem with a heat pump ONLY solution in this area is that they (the airhandlers) runs CONTINUOUSLY if you don’t have “proper” insulation…. And believe me, none of the pre-1920 brownstones have enough insulation, and most can NOT be retrofitted with the correct insulation.

The airhandlers use very little electricity themselves, but no matter how large, just can’t heat a rom with 114” ceilings and large windows.

Master Plvmber | 3 years and 1 month ago

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@eman137 and @gennady, I like Viessmann very much but they are not well represented or supported in our area. I installed 12 units in 4 big-money addresses in the past 4 years and have had many dealings with the company lately. If I need something from them I immediately go to a neighboring state’s field rep, which they don’t like, but it’s the only way to get something done with them. If you tell me you’re not having this same experience I won’t believe you.

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Brownstones also tend to have unique layouts (like high ceilings) which can be the death of a HeatPump that is not properly designed…

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Brownstones also tend to have unique layouts (like high ceilings) which can be the death of a HeatPump that is not properly designed…

whztqtgnjsbze | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Without proper insulation heatpumps will simply not provide enough heat in the depths of winter in NYC area. I’ve has Mitsubish Hyper Heat system for 8 years and NEVER feel warm Dec-Mar in our three floor brownstone.

The simple reason is … heatpumps blow at maybe 120 degrees at the air-handler (blower) while forced air will blow 160-180 degrees… By the time the heatpump’s air hits the center of he room it may be 90 degrees.. Less than the temperature of your skin…. so the although “heated” feels cold.

We are going to swap our heatpump only system with a hybrid-system:

Heat the parlour and basement with 64K btu of forced air, and heat the top floor only with the heatpumps.

Guest User | 3 years and 1 month ago

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gennady..i have to agree with you regarding viessmann … they are the gold standard and can last forever.

alexwithak | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Modern heat pumps are absolutely an option in the NYC area. We had ours installed mid-winter and switched the boiler off at the beginning of February and haven’t looked back. Bonuses: It’s much quieter and our heating costs dropped substantially, and that’s with a couple nights in the teens. You definitely need a system rated for cold weather (we have Mitsubishi Hyper Heat). And having modern windows and good insulation makes it much more effective. But I think it’s well worth it and will be wonderful in the summer, too.

ellenlourie | 3 years and 1 month ago

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There is contact info on their site. Better contact them. Regarding the life span of the HE boilers, we are servicing Viessmann boilers which are 20 plus years old, and before us, no one laid a hand on them. They are in fantastic shape after we do maintenance and bring them in order.

Guest User | 3 years and 1 month ago

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Gennedy… the Eviropower unit looks interesting but there appears to be no pricing info available…. Also I find it a bit disturbing that the website predicts a lifespan for the units of only 10 years….I would be a bit leery considering the last new thing (HE boilers) has proved costly in terms of service calls and maintenance ( I just saw a 10 year old Buderus fail due to a failed heat exchanger