Forcing Your Neighbors to Pay For Your Electric Bill
When you buy the system they tell you to expect a small percentage of decline in efficiency year after year due to the natural lifespan of these devices. It’s a couple percent per year kind of thing. And the useful lifespan of the panels is estimated 20 years. They should be still generating plenty at that point and I bet many years onward.
When you buy solar, part of the expense of pricier companies is the length and details of warranty of the system and the components, and also guarantee of production—that means that you should get at least x percent of the estimated production of your system all things being equal minus the annual decline. Like Putnam we out-produce our estimates most every month–only occasionally is there a month where it rains tons and you underproduce, but for the year we’re still ahead.
When you have a system there’s an app or web interface where you can see in real time what you are producing, what your historical production is, down to the day and even to each moment.
Because ConEd is a massive tangled bureaucracy, their smart meters a ren’t actually very smart and can’t handle net metering apparently (and live view is wrong too) and so they have someone manually calculate and send you monthly statements. It’s beyond absurd.
Lurker
in General Discussion 1 year and 1 month ago
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jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago
Every couple of years I review the State and Federal Solar incentive projects and post asking for REAL WORLD data on this forum….. No one ever responds with actual data from their Solar Installation.
We get a lot of fuzzy comments like “its working really well,” and “it’s saving me a lot of money,” or “Talk to Brooklyn Solar Works,” but no one actually posts a dollars and cents real world summary for their building.
I long ago came to the opinion that solar is a scam, and until they can either cut the costs in half or double the wattage produced by a standard solar panel for the same production cost… it ain’t gonna be financially a winner in our latitude with only 3.5 solar hours/day charging time.
The only people who “win” outside the virtue signalers are the solar installers who actual receive the hard dollar incentive money from the state and Feds (outside the crumbs produced from net metering.)
Now I know I’m asking for a beating…. But can anyone post a summary of REAL WORLD data from an actual solar installation on a one or two family home here in Brooklyn whi ch actually does better that a break even or slightly better from the home owners standpoint.
I’m an advocate of time shifting ConEds kWh rate to after midnight with the application of whole house batteries and “time of use” billing.
In my opinion this would be a more sensible approach to saving money on my less than $250/month (without heat pumps figured in) electric bill.
But this plan (whole house battery) seems to be endlessly stuck in some sort of review… and with these lithium powered bikes causing fires everywhere, I fear we are a long way off from simply hanging a battery between the electrical drop off and my breaker box.
As I told a friend of mine who worked briefly for a solar installer…
All you have to do is look at the rooftops out the window of the bus while on the BQE or Belt Parkway. How many solar installations do you see? The answer is: very few… That’s gotta tell you something.
Comments?
eg66 | 1 year and 2 months ago
We just installed– I suspect that we will break even in 8-10 years, at best, but there are a lot of variables at play. We have a big roof (1000+ sq ft) with no shade at all, and should generate in excess of 10,000 kwh annually, with room to upsize. We are moving to putting everything we can on electric, likely to include heat at least in the shoulder seasons. Eventually we hope the solar covers two households (we have tenants, not yet connected till we figure out the productivity). I am hedging my bets on the price of electricity + natural gas rising, and on the hope of storage batteries eventually coming to fruition. Like many incentivized programs, I think solar is overpriced and I recognize my money might have done better in the stock market (or replacing my vinyl windows), but for us it was a reasonable and optimistic thing to do. A lot of small buildings are not owner-occupied, or have multiple rental units stacked under a roof of relatively low square footage. There is really no incentive for a landlord to install solar when tenant-paid electricity is the norm, ga s is cheap enough, and the panels aren’t efficient enough for a vertical built environment.
I did a tilt installation and have a high parapet in the front, so I’m not even getting a lot of virtue signaling for my money!
Guest User | 1 year and 2 months ago
I’m curious if anyone makes more dollars sense out of solar if they also charge their EV. Though my bet is we all will switch to hydrogen cars after we realize the problems mountains of dead EV battery junk yards create
jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago
For the last 20 years I have been telling myself:
“In 10 years the technology will improve and make the cost:benefit analysis obvious….”
But then I think back…
In the early ‘70s the powers that be promoted a type of hydro heating where pipes snaked through panels installed on the roof which absorbed solar radiation and (supposedly) provided enough energy to heat a home……
10 years later I remember people were ripping this junk off their roofs and had substantial bills to patch and repair the roof installations.
I’m not saying Solar is junk… But it certainly is wrapped in what I call “the Space Shuttle Dilemma:”
Technology is improving at a steady clip.. but not fast enough to re-equip the shuttle… Let’s wait 50 years, make no investment in space travel BEFORE we try again with new technology.
jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago
Kudos to those like GreenwoodGolblin who are pioneers— But”understand” the “true” nature of the beast… Kudos.
workisfun | 1 year and 2 months ago
Our assessment by BSW made theoretical sense in production and costs, etc. However, our issue was that if our neighbor’s house sells to a developer, the new owner could build twice as high, as zoning DOES allow, and we’d be screwed. I would imagine this concern is shared or will be shared by present installations as the city continues to search for more housing development opportunities where there are so few. Zoning will eventually change where people don’t expect it and current solar panels will be shaded.
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 1 year and 2 months ago
850mph: IIRC that ’70s solar was just designed to provide domestic hot water by preheating water going to water heaters and was reasonably cost effective. I don’t know what percentage of those systems are still in service.
jrs84o | 1 year and 2 months ago
Thanks Bob! I was around but only a boy… but do remember people ripping the mechanicals off their roofs after only a few years.
Lurker | 1 year and 2 months ago
We did this and I think have made out quite well.
Out system cost like 35k and there was a 0% loan available but we paid in cash for reduction in cost. we should break even in 4 years, once we fully realize nyserda rebate, local real estate tax reduction (drop by X% for 4 years), state credit, federal credit, and historic district credit our total cost was 7 or 8k. We are a 2 family and now both meters are joined (it’s common) so our bills depend a bit on our renter’s use of window ACs etc, but our monthly bill continues to be $25 a month which is hte cost of delivery from ConEd.
We consistently produce above the estimates (which are guaranteed btw–if you dont’ produce within x% of estimates every year you get refunded by the installer) and even in months when we use more electricity than we generate the surplus credits from other months carries us through.
we have gas for heat and use window ACs wantonly. would love to install mini splits.
roof has 17 panels, is flat. in 2022 we generated 8200 kWh, in 2023 7675kwh.
stoopsitter | 1 year and 2 months ago
Our situation is almost identical to Lurker’s — size of bills and rebates, both. Our installation is smaller and our monthly usage proportionately smaller. BSW did ours and I don’t recall any production guarantees. I will note that the NYS Historic District rebate was a significant incentive for us but one that is no longer available because gentrification has bumped our neighborhood out of the program.
Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 2 months ago
A building south of me has been expanded, but so far it looks like my panels are still in the sun (and certainly are in prime generation months). When someone to the east was planning to add a bulkhead, he was willing to make it hatch instead (I had let some shady renovations go without [too much] protest). I too have produced enough to cover all me electrical costs. Now I wish I had gotten a somewhat larger system to “fuel” electrification of the house. Not sure that I could add additional panels now in a cost-effective way. And yes, there may have been other ways to reduce my over-all energy costs, such as better insulation and fixing poorly installed windows. They are on my list. It is a long list.
lkrshacmzcy | 1 year and 2 months ago
We did the math on our new office and we would have broken even within five years; our problem became the same for anyone who is doing this in certain areas: New Development.
If you are next to any building that has the zone rights to build up, someone will buy it and build up.
Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 2 months ago
Well, I just got my first bill that charged more than the connection fee. As I look over the past year, my previous credits gradually got eaten up. I have to do a deep dive if this is due to some reduced solar power output (first glance is that last year was lower than the year before, but not markedly so), or an increase in demand – my house has been fuller than in the past for various reasons. I have no doubt that I will still benefit from the solar panels, but I took an irrational joy in “overproducing” each year to avoid any such charges (which get doubled once you consider the delivery fee as well). So we shall see! This also makes clear that I don’t have any excess to cover possible electrification of range, water heater etc. Need to check in with a neighbor who did all those things but put on a somewhat larger array.
eg66 | 1 year and 2 months ago
Putnamdenizen, how productive is your array and how much are you running on electric? A week in, we are generating about 40 kwh on sunny days, and this should be way more than adequate for our routine lights/charging , heat pump dryer, and fully electric kitchen — enough so that we are confident we can add a heat pump water hearer. I hope I’m right! Hoping for sunny days so you can get back in the black.
JohnHancock | 1 year and 2 months ago
More sunny days also means more AC usage …. 😉
Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 1 month ago
@GreenwoodGoblin I have done a deep dive. I have 15 panels – 4,650 Watts anticipated 5,441 kWh per year. Over the past 7 years my average annual production has been 5869 (108% of expected). My usage (figured out by taking monthly net usage from conedison and combining it with monthly production) has averaged 5723 per year. The expected production was thus spot on the 95% of usage promised by BSW, and the actual production has been @ 103% of average usage. That said there was distinct under usage in earlier years and “over usage” in last two years. I think that is best explained by more people in house (2 units both on my panels) and more a/c use. I have much less on my system than you do – only my oven is electric, dryer is gas, hot water and heating are gas. I started my system in September 2017, had to “top up” with Con Ed electricity in winter 2018. But after that was always ahead of the game until the cumulative net production peaked out at 2389 in October 2021. It has been a slow hilly decline of cumulative net production since there. But no real change in pro duction except last year – maybe due to Canadian forest fires and some – not a lot – of impact middays at end of year due to new construction to the south.
jrs84o | 1 year and 1 month ago
This is GREAT STUFF!
Thnx to all who posted real-world info.
lucie | 1 year and 1 month ago
Just a wild guess:
Do you think that production is declining a bit year over year?
Do you think that it might be due to panels loosing efficiency somehow?
Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 1 month ago
@olga – My system is new (only 7 years old), and until 2023 showed an increase in production every year until 2023. So I will definitely keep an eye on what happens in 2024, both in terms of usage and production. I’d be interested to hear if others have similar analyses. Or am I the only nerd on this board? (Hard to believe).