First time homebuyer worried about existing unpermitted work and insurance
Keep in mind, there is a difference to unpermitted and not to code. The problem is, people who do not pull permits often proceed this way to save money and in the process they break codes.
From the perspective of the insurance co and liability, i would be more concerned about shoddy work and code violations.
In so far as what chris says above, if you buy a house with unpermitted work and go to file for a permit to say add a bathroom or for what evet reason you invite the dob into your house, when they see unpermitted work, they will make you file it to legalize it and correct any violations along the way. This is seperate and apart from issues with the insurance company.
I would do what stoopsitter does and call an independent broker. I use an independent for my business insurance and i do ask them “what-if” questions all the time and doing so does not raise any red flags like it might if i asked the same questions of the insurance company.
andriywww1990
in General Discussion 2 years and 10 months ago
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oliver111222 | 2 years and 11 months ago
Hi, I’m looking at buying my first home — a 1915 landmarked two family townhouse.
There is no Certificate of Occupancy since it is so old. On BIS I can’t find any permits for the property except one to remove an illegal cellar unit violation in the late 90’s.
Despite that, in the last 10 or so years, the whole interior was renovated, re-roofed, central air installed, and there is a relatively new deck out back.
I like the house and everything looks like it is in great condition — but I’m new to this and pretty nervous.
Do the lack of permits jeopardize my home owners insurance? I was reading through the home owners insurance questions and they were so specific about what year plumbing/electric was updated, etc… I keep worrying that if the house burns down or something, the whole thing will be denied by insurance because of an illegal deck, or something.
andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago
I put the question about code violations to my insurance company as i bought my house. I did not ask about unpermitted work. Specifically i asked if they would deny a claim if there was a fire as a result of non code compliant electric work. They told me it was there right to deny it.
Keep something in mind, all of these houses were built in such a way that they would be full of code violations if they were built today and most have had some alteration or something else done to them that has changed them from their original state. If i were new to all of this, i would get a highly skilled heating system person to look at the heat, a roofer to look at the roof, and a electrician to look at the electric work.
About the question they asked regarding the age of these systems. I suspect they use that info to calculate risk. I had to tell them our electric was original, the roof 5 years old, and the boller 25. Unsure how any of that impacted our rate.
andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago
And you state this was all redone in the last ten years or so. Find out as much as you can about who redid what and why. Did an owner have it redone by a skilled GC who hired subs (doubtful, they’d pulled permits)? Or did an owner Gc it themselves and hire skilled trades or did a homeonwer do it all themselves and was the job done with the intent that the owner would live in it for ten or more years? or was it done by a flipper to sell as fast as possible while maximizing profit? Part of the answer lies in who owned it for how long.
Homeowners can spot shoddy workmanship by looking at the spackling job, how moldings were joined, how things were finishied when painted or top coated, if the windows are new that they work (if they are new and don’t work or slide easily an incompetent person installed them). Look at how fixtures are set. Are things centered and level? If they cannot get the stuff that we see right, they certainly are not going to care about the stuff we can’t see. A bolier person and an electrician can help with the stuff we can’t see .
By the way, if that house was rewired, a permit would have been required. I suppose if a licensed trade did it, it could be safe but an honest tradesparson would have forced them to pull a permit. A lot of questions here. i would definitely have the wiring checked.
The writer of this is becoming a licensed home inspector. The website is www.brownstonehomeinspection.com. i wish i had my license, i’d love to cut my teeth on this.
cate | 2 years and 11 months ago
It all depends on what was done. Not everything requires an Alt-1 or Alt-2 permit to be legal. Moving walls, adding/moving wet rooms, building an addition require permits. Plumbers and electricians sometimes file for major work such as replacing the entire house’s electrical systems. Other things such as skim coating, painting, or swapping out a toilet, sink, valves, etc., where plumbing already exists do not require permits. I don’t know anything about decks.
jimhillra | 2 years and 11 months ago
Decks DEFINITELY require permits. There are zoning and code issues with significant implications. The most common is that a wood deck cannot be within 3 feet of a property line. A split system air conditioning system does not need a permit if it only serves one floor. As soon as it exceeds one floor, it requires DOB approval.
Having said all that, I’m an architect, not an insurance expert, so this is really a question for an agent.
andriywww1990 | 2 years and 11 months ago
Changing egress, window size or adding windows needs a permit. Adding or moving a kitchen or bath does.
Electric work is crazy. They basically say they want a permit for everything and all work has to be done by a licenced electrical contractor. But some work, minor work, does not have to be inspected. So if you have a new box and cable and you know it was not filed, you might have an issue. Simply adding a branch circuit can raise a flag.
Technically, changing an outlet can raise a flag. Here in nyc, because of the armored cable, we have always had a continuous ground – but with the use of romex, some of these boneheads might not ground an outlet. Some may reverse polarity. You can check these yourself and some of this is an easy fix for an electrician. A licensed home inspector will check these.
Changing or installing a boiler and they are supposed to pressure test the system and inspectors can show up for that.
I would worry about gas lines. There have been multiple deaths in the city in the past decade due to explosions. Gas line s done by handymen make me nervous.
Keep in mind, all of the pre wwii housing stock in this city has modifications and people continue to do this work without permits. The insurance company knows this-
stoopsitter | 2 years and 10 months ago
Call an insurance broker, not the actual insurance company doing the underwriting, and — without mentioning missing permits — ask what they would need to see to write you a policy. It’s possible they will want to send someone out to inspect and photograph current conditions, so that they have a record against which to assess damage claims in the future. But I’ve changed brokers two or three times over the 22 years we’ve owned our home and no one has ever asked for permits. And my current broker is a major pita when it comes to sidewalk violations, etc.
musicbytheocean | 2 years and 10 months ago
We’ve bought two homes in Brooklyn that had some renovations over the years that were definitely unpermitted; home insurance company never asked about it. They just wanted to see condition of the home so they knew what they were insuring and replacement cost(s).
lkrshacmzcy | 2 years and 10 months ago
You normally don’t run into the No Permits issue until you have to address the Non-Permitted work. For this reason, people do not always consider it.
TERRIBLE WAY TO THINK. You will have to address it 9/10 times throughout your Homeownership so prepare for it.
lkrshacmzcy | 2 years and 10 months ago
You normally don’t run into the No Permits issue until you have to address the Non-Permitted work. For this reason, people do not always consider it.
TERRIBLE WAY TO THINK. You will have to address it 9/10 times throughout your Homeownership so prepare for it.