feasibility of turning an extension that wasn't filed into a legal extension

We are in contract to buy a townhouse that has an extension that doesn’t seem to be filed with the DOB. It is a 7X20 extension that serves as a laundry room. It’s cinderblock on the outside, finished on the inside but not insulated. It also blocks the window from the back room to the outside which is awful. We assumed that we’d be knocking it down and restoring the view out of the back. One contractor suggested adding to it (ie insulating, adding a bigger window, tearing down wall between back room and extension to make bigger room with light) rather than demolishing it. Is this something that can be approved with proper plans from an architect?

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in General Discussion 8 years and 2 months ago

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WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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You guys are great. Thanks for this info @MDR. So I think it must be a porch in the back. We would be renovating the existing footprint. I’ll definitely consult with an architect to get the final word on whether we’ll need to get it approved and whether we are grandfathered in with the existing structure and it’s dimensions.

MDR | 8 years and 2 months ago

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On the historical map the extensions that are pink are masonry, those in yellow are wood framed. If there is no color it is an open porch. The small unfilled boxes were likely small porches providing cover at the door from the kitchen out to the yard. Some houses in the late 1870’s were built with a small toilet room in the rear corner of the house but accessed from the outside. You had to go out the kitchen door to get to it. With a flushing toilet it was a step up from an outhouse.

If your extension is 20′ long it was almost certainly built or rebuilt after the original house construction. A good proportion of houses in Brooklyn have extensions built without a permit, that’s not really a problem. If you are just renovating within the existing footprint, most people would do that without permits and not have any issues. If you are doing more extensive work then you will need to hire an architect to get it approved and yes it will face a lot of scrutiny by DOB.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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There are other similarly sized rectangles on the block. I can’t tell what they are. The legend doesn’t include them. They are very small. Here’s the map. Without giving the exact address, you can see that there are lots of buildings with small rectangles/squares attached on the back. Ours has a wider rectangle (the length of the building). https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/64b4bacb-eb81-f38a-e040-e00a18063c80

Run Joe | 8 years and 2 months ago

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The fact the something is indicated on the map is good. As others have mentioned you’re going to have to order a Sanborn to get the level of detail you’re looking for.

Is this property the only one with the rectangle or are there other similarly sized rectangles on the block?

CarmenR | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Also if you’re planning on submitting this to the DOB, you’ll need an official copy of the sanborn map. Pretty sure it was around $200 and can be ordered directly from sanborn if memory serves.

CarmenR | 8 years and 2 months ago

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There’s a key somewhere that you can use to determine what the map is showing. We relied heavily on Sanborn maps to be able to keep our wood front porch and to keep the “secondary building” on our lot (it used to be a stable on the 1880 sanborn map.) Had we not been able to show those items on the map, we likely would have had to replace and rebuild to current code.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Question, @Run Joe, what were you looking for on the maps you linked? I looked at what they have from 1900-1909 and the next time period, and the house is there, but I’m trying to decipher what the map can tell me? I see a tiny rectangle on the back of the house. Do you know what that means? Thanks!

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Thanks to both of you! This is super helpful!!

peaceout | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Grand Army Plaza library has the Sanborn maps on the top floor. If the extension was never filed (common in NYC back in the day), but on the Sanborn map, you probably can be grandfathered in.

Run Joe | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Another resource is http://spacetime.nypl.org/maps-by-decade/#/.

These are digital maps provided by the NYPublic Library. For my own property, I was able to find a really good map in the 1890-1899 section. It may be different for you.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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I checked that before- doesn’t seem to be an ICard on record. I’m finding that there isn’t much documentation for this house. Not sure what to make of that…Could we get the equivalent of an ICard at the actual DOB? Thanks!

Run Joe | 8 years and 2 months ago

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The Bank/Title survey is helpful, however, it only documents the current condition. It won’t tell if it’s permitted or how long it’s been there.

What you need is the I-Card for this property. You can find it on the Department of Housing and Buildings(HPD) website.

https://hpdonline.hpdnyc.org/HPDonline/provide_address.aspx

Enter the address and scroll down on the left to ICard Images. If you have an ICard the process of legalizing/rebuilding the extension will be much easier.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Just heard back from the lawyer. He said that they could not locate a survey so they ordered one. THe one they ordered has the extension on it…how does that fit into what you’ve said @resident2?

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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You’re right- I looked more closely and it’s a search of the DOB’s records that shows no violations. So not an inspection but a search. One more question- is the physical survey different than what you would get at the DOB if you were to request the records for the building? I asked the lawyer for the blueprint and he said that we would get that directly from the DOB? How is a survey different? Thanks!

resident2 | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Ask your lawyer; who is the one that ordered the title search to order a physical survey, so that you have it in your files. Not just for the purpose of purchasing, but for future use.
The inspection last year was by who and for what purpose? Typically DOB does not inspect the whole building unless a whole new C of O or a building wide permit was obtained for some reason.
But the chances are as I said before there has probably been an extension there from long before C of O came into existence.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Thanks @resident2. I just checked the title search that we have and I don’t see a survey. Should I ask our lawyer to request it or can I request it myself? If so, where would this request be directed, the DOB? Also, I noticed that the title search says that it was inspected last year and no violations were found. Does this mean that the extension is probably grandfathered in or legal? Thanks!

resident2 | 8 years and 2 months ago

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When buying a house, in my opinion you should always get a survey done as part of the title searches. Insist on getting an actual printed out survey, not just a survey inspection. It costs a bit more but it literally gives you the outline, extensions, fences etc of your property.
The fact that you cannot find a filing for the extension in the DOB files does not mean that is illegal. By the size of it it sounds like one of the old “tea porches” that used to be wood frame, over the years some people rebuilt them etc.. But the actual extension is “grandfathered in”. A survey will show if it has been there for almost ever.

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Also, this seems like exactly what we would need to do….would you say that this ended up costing as much as a new extension? Given that it costs 10-15k to demolish the existing structure, how much more did it cost to do this?

WRPListings | 8 years and 2 months ago

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@gobedstuygo- can you tell me how we might be able to get a survey done before we close on the house? We will definitely have an architect involved, but that may not be until we close. I’d love to get a sense if this is something that is on the survey or not before then. Thanks!