Extorted by plumber - Update

@eman134 – I emailed you back. pls respond. thanks

katdov

in General Discussion 8 years and 7 months ago

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katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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In advance, thanks everyone for your advice on previous post. So the story continues – the tenant is in the apartment and the radiators are still leaking and are very noisy. I brought in another plumber who changed the valves to new ones, to different opening sizes (the 2 problem radiators are in the very back of the house, so approx. 30 feet stretch from the riser), pitched the radiators, etc… The problem is not going away and while there is some roll-back, the water still seems to pooling in the radiators. Which, according to the new plumber, is either because the pipes arent pitched properly or there is only one pipe, no return pipe. And to fix this, I may need to open up the floors because the is no access from the basement.

The permit is still open with the plumber of record. He is trying but there is apparently one bureaucratic issue after another.

If I do end up having to open up all the floors, compensate the tenant for somewhere to stay while this is going on, etc, what is my legal recourse? Do I have any options here?

Thank you so much!!!

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Lots of systems are one pipe systems. By itself, that would not be a reason water is pooling. Of course, if it is a two-pipe system and there is only one pipe, then you just found your problem. 😉

By valves, I think you might mean vents. Valves are where the pipe connects to the radiator. Vents are where the air is released as the steam fills the radiator to a certain pressure.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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A great example for why I prefer hot water baseboards.

no-permits | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@dibs you would like baseboards.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Far more practical and don’t stand out like radiators. You probably have no idea of the styles out there now. You probably like steam.

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Is there some kind of double entendre I am missing in the exchange of insults here?

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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He’s just blowing off steam.

boredatwork | 8 years and 7 months ago

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BTW, I love my hot water radiators.

But, to the question at hand….

You can try to sue the plumber in small claims or civil court. You need to document everything and show the damages from his actions or mistakes. It would help if you have a contract that he has breached. Depending on your damages, small claims may be the way to go. He needs to hire a lawyer, and you dont, and the judges tend to be more sympathetic to plaintiffs.

There may be a way to make life difficult for him given that he is licensed by the city and needs to be able to file for permits, etc., but that would be more for your emotional satisfaction rather than any compensation for your losses.

katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@daveinbedstuy – I love water baseboards and I know there are some stunning units that look like art. however, when i converted oil to gas I was told steam was the easiest and best way to go, so I did. Since I did not change the entire building’s plumbing system, I had no choice but to get the ones I have now. At least this is what this plumber told me a year ago.

@bored at work – the plumber is not licensed. the permit was opened by a different plumber, who is the plumber of record. also, there is no contract. however, the scope of work is outlined in the docs filed with the DOB. all I have are signed money receipts.

i am hoping I can make life difficult for the plumber of record, because then he would never again open a permit for this guy, which would hurt him. So where does one file complaints? Small claims court? Better Business Bureau?

katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@slopefarm – you are probably right. I repeat what the plumber told me. English is not his first language and I just repeat what he told me. Just googled and yes, vents. Valves turn it on/off. :). Thanks!

ellenlourie | 8 years and 7 months ago

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duplicate

ellenlourie | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Usually these problems related to improper piping around the boiler, oversized/over fired boiler, dirty boiler water. You can download boiler installation manual and compare what manufacturer requires with what you have, pay attention to sizes and configuration of piping. it must be followed to the letter. System must be flushed, boiler must be skimmed. Bring plumber in and educate him.

Regarding cover up by licenced plumber, he is very likely to lose his license because of this. DOB is very strict in this regard.

Regarding hot water vs steam system, both, when done properly work great. When done poorly, do not work as intended. It is not about system it is all about installer.

katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@Genndady – the plumber who did the boiler did a good (in my layman view), as it worked well after the swap. Also, while the apartment was gutted, the plumber on the job connected the new radiators, and it worked fine (though according to him!). Also, the 2 apartments above were not renovated and the radiators were not replaced, and it all works great. However, the ground floor unit, now that it’s all closed and done, is where the problems are. And only in the part of the apartment where new pipes were stretched (ie, the back). The plumber who had done the job had finally re-appeared yesterday (after a month of no answer and/or hang ups), changed the vents, raised them higher, and the very back radiator is now fine, however the one in between has gotten worse. He is now saying that the original system in the building was bad, and there is now too much pressure on the middle radiator, too much steam is pushing through, etc etc, and that’s why it’s leaking. So he wants to raise the radiator by 5″. It already looks unseemly with cut up plywood under the feet. I can’t belie ve they charge such sums on renovations and do not change the century old system while everything is open, just to make sure problems such as this do not occur.

eman134 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I am a pretty decent steam guy, and not once have I raised a radiator 5 inches off the floor to solve a distribution problem. The guy does not have a clue

katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Apparently the plumber tapped into the existing mainline from the original riser. He moved one radiator back by about 8 feet, and moved another one laterally. I was told it is possible that the initial extension pipes weren’t pitched well, which exacerbated the problem with teh new radiators. Short of opening the floor and changing most of the plumbing, they don’t know what to do.

@eman134 – what would your advice be? They’ve raised the vents, they changed the vent size, they raised the radiators by about 1 inch.

eman134 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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if your piping was backpitched you are pretty much screwed… the steam lines will be full of water and piss water out the air vents and bang, My suggestion is to cut a tee off of the extended line where it is accessible and drop down to the return. Change out the shitty 40 dollar pressuretrol on the boiler that controls the system with a $250 vaporstat and lower the system pressure to 12-14 ounces

eman134 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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or hang the radiator from the ceiling…lol

katdov | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@eman – there is no access point to the line. anywhere. so eliminating this option, any other choices, other than hanging it from the ceiling?

eman134 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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vaporstat…. if the pressure is low enough in the system you might be able to do a work around