exposing floor joists in a ceiling--can it ever be to code?

The building code requires that dwelling units are separated from each other by fire rated walls and ceilings.
If the garden level is a separate unit (which I believe it is) then you need a fire rated ceiling to inhibit the spread of fire between units and you cannot legally expose the ceiling structure.
If the ceiling is between two levels of the same unit then you are free to do what you like.

MDR

in General Discussion 7 years and 3 months ago

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slopegirl | 7 years and 4 months ago

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we are about to renovate, and will probably turn our 3-unit building into a triplex over garden rental… since we’re currently living in bottom two floors I’ve looked at our (low) garden level ceilings a lot, and I would love to expose the joists on the garden level, and add plaster in between, to give the space a homey feeling…. is that ever legal in New York? One architect we spoke to recently said no. I came here hoping for a different answer (I know) although I realize I may just have to let this go. thanks if anyone has more info on this.

Guest User | 7 years and 4 months ago

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some info from an old thread: https://www.brownstoner.com/forum-archive/2010/03/exposed-beams-f/
it looks like if the garden level and first floor are going to be separate units, which it sounds from your description like they are, you can’t do this because you need fire stopping between separate units.

robertbullock | 7 years and 4 months ago

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We did just that less the plaster and have seen other recent renovations with the same. No one’s ever said it was a code violation and we did everything by permit andabove the board, but given that one architect’s told you it is, it’s wise to double check. Definitely worth doing for the reasons you raise.

slopegirl | 7 years and 4 months ago

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thanks!

eileengray | 7 years and 4 months ago

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In non-fireproof building (99% of Brooklyn row houses built before 1938) that are 3 stories or more (3 +Basement), 1 hour fire rated construction is required to prevent the spread of fire between floors. Exposed joists are combustible and need to be covered with a non-combustible material – 5/8″ gypsum wall board. If the floor above were concrete, you could have exposed wood joists (which would be superfluous as structural elements). I believe that exposed joists are permitted if the building is fully sprinklered. Fire protection between units is required but even if the building (3+B) is a one family, the floor/ceiling assembly needs to be rated. This is an architect speaking.

slopegirl | 7 years and 4 months ago

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Thank you Eileen this is very helpful, I think we will be adding sprinklers so maybe I can keep my dream alive for a little longer.

slopefarm | 7 years and 3 months ago

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I’ve never been a fan of exposed joists. Absorbs a lot of light, creates shadows, etc. It is also not a historic look. If you are going to do it, paint or whitewash the joists. (Can’t wait for this fad to end.)

chemosphere | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Frederick Sterner, open beamed ceilings, 1922 renovation of an 1870s house. [Parge house interior 1922](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:erax:pargehouseinterior1922.jpg.jpg)

robertbullock | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Our ceiling looks way better exposed. While the surface of the subfloors upstairs was in terrible shape, it’s beautiful underneath, as are the joists. Covered, the ceiling was relatively low (under 8 1/2 feet) and felt lower. Exposing it gave us a few more inches and a much airier feel. If the ceiling felt dark, we were going to paint the subfloor wood white and leave the joists unpainted but it doesn’t so we didn’t. Call it a fad if you like, but his look’s been around for a long, long time. And if you decide you want ceilings, add a ceiling.

yudashasom | 7 years and 3 months ago

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i agree with slopefarm, not a historic look of a typical brooklyn row house of the mid to late 1800’s. also, you’ll have some noise issues.

slopefarm | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Sometimes in various styles and eras it was fashionable to show the beamwork. But typically in those cases, the beams would be boxed in with finish wood that was then painted or stained. Sometimes even adorned with moulding. But the wood used in the late 19th century for joists was not meant to be exposed.

chemosphere | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Jeez guys. Looking forward to hanging out in your original-state 1870s kitchens with a coal burning oven, water heater next to it, and an enormous soapstone laundry sink where you do all your laundry by hand.

slopegirl | 7 years and 3 months ago

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I appreciate the warnings which are worth considering. We are not aiming for total historical accuracy or recreation and I definitely do not like most modern gut jobs on lovely old brownstones. I enjoy the old parts of our building where they have survived, although many details are long gone for us (fireplaces for example). That said I like the look of joists when there is plaster in between, and not just the exposed bottom of a wood subfloor… I agree that is too dark and probably too noisy also.

I do think exposed joists could be nice in a garden level kitchen where ceilings are low anyway. In my mind’s eye it would be just in the kitchen and dining space and could give the rooms a cozy and cottage-y charm.

I think the idea of partially undressing certain parts of the house to appreciate how it’s built and to give a glimpse of the history of the structure is valid. I can imagine a bit of exposed chimney in the garden floor kitchen in the same way.

It may not be possible for us even if fire code does allow because the triplex plan would involve adding a kitchen o n the parlor floor, and so I assume plumbing and gas lines that may be a problem regardless.

On the other hand, the front room ceiling in our garden level appears to be original and has an elaborate plaster crown molding which I really like and would never remove, but there’s also a thick picture frame type molding inside of that (sorry no idea the proper term), which I don’t think works with such low ceilings, so I don’t agree that any original features are necessarily the best design choices for a space.

slopefarm | 7 years and 3 months ago

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LOL. Actually, the flipper who was (fraudulently, as it turned out) renovating our house (built ca. 1854-68) in advance of closing tried to convince us to let him off the hook on lighting the hallway and suggested, only half in jest, we should have candelabras in the stairwell and just carry candles up and down like they did in the old days.

We did a bit of preservation but did not go for a full-on historical restoration. My main beef with exposed joists is that they really mess with the light and the joists themselves are rough and I don’t like looking at them. I don’t like the look. To each his/her own of course but I do think some people think they are doing something historical by exposing them.

NeoGrec | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Personally, I love the look. Have you considered attaching “fake” joists to your ceiling? It’s a much easier job than plastering inbetween each joist and would enable far superior sound isolation and presumably be compliant re. fireproofing regulations. It wouldn’t be hard to source some vintage wood with the right appearance and installation should be simple. Just a little creative cheating!

chemosphere | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Isn’t a circa 1900 beamed dining room ceiling aka “Mission dining room” just “fake” joists?

NeoGrec | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Those Mission dining rooms generally feature much more massive beams than the floor joists found on the low-ceilinged lower ground floor.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 7 years and 3 months ago

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The beams in the middle parlor of my 1899 house are definitely fake.

albertw | 7 years and 3 months ago

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We did it in our basement and (after a lot of work cleaning up the joists) it looks fantastic. However, even with plaster between the joists, the sound thing is no joke.