Do I need a common staircase leading to the roof for a 4 family?

Leinad, yes if you could find me that provision?? I would be very interested to see it. thank you in advance! mjudgeny@gmail.com

kimthorn10

in General Discussion 8 years and 3 months ago

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jakesprague | 8 years and 4 months ago

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Hello Everyone. I am in the midst of renovating to a new 4 family. 4 floors-one apartment per floor. I was told by my architect that I must have a common stair case to the roof. I am doubting that as I remember reading/seeing differently and I could not find the exact answer in the code. I was wondering whether a ladder from the common staircase on the 3rd floor to the roof will suffice or/and whether I can simply incorporate the 4th floor hallway into the 4th floor apartment (increasing that apt square footage) and have a private staircase from the 4th floor apartment to the roof (with a bulkhead at the top of it).
I would greatly appreciate any feedback . Thank you

bushwickbp | 8 years and 4 months ago

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The reason you need a common staircase to the roof is to comply with fire dep’t regulations. So the private staircase from the 4th floor apt would not satisfy that. Why not just have your architect show you where in the current building code it states that you can’t maintain a ladder from the 4th floor common hall? Obviously many 4 story houses have that.
Domenick Neglia, RE Appraiser

bk123 | 8 years and 4 months ago

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YES!…4 stories or 40′ above grade needs full stair to roof.
http://www.nyc-permit-expeditors.com/

BobMarvin | 8 years and 4 months ago

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Keep in mind that most “four story” traditional high stoop brownstones are legally “three stories and basement”.

slopefarm | 8 years and 4 months ago

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Bob, since the unit is a 4-fam, I am not sure that it makes a difference whether the building is 3+ basement. Years ago (Clinton’s second term, to be exact) I was president of a 4-unit brownstone coop. The building had a basement garden apartment (ours) so it was a 3 story with basement. We had to clear an outstanding violation concerning a ladder to the roof. Not only were we required to have a permanent, fixed ladder to the roof, it had to be in a common area and it could not be enclosed in a closet.

deancollins | 8 years and 4 months ago

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as answered above…..yep.

If like I suspect you are going to build a duplex on the 3/4 floors you’ll need an internal stairwell (which will require wall to wall metal support beams).

You can check out what we did in BH at – http://bit.ly/135henry and be careful on where you think the internal stair breakthrough is going to go…..we had to move ours because of chimneys.

Get in touch if you need more info.

utoeid | 8 years and 4 months ago

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So I now hear 4 families are subject to certain building codes. Be careful they don’t ask you to install fire-escapes or run a sprinkler system. Not sure how you would put in another egress to the roof unless the egress you have is currently in the common area hallways and not in the top floor apartment.

jonrai21 | 8 years and 4 months ago

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I kind of know the answer to this, but in a three family building, must the hatch remain unlocked on the inside (ie. without a padlock) so tenants can use it as a fire escape?

brucef | 8 years and 4 months ago

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The answer depends on the pitch of the roof. I don’t recall if it was 17 or 22 degrees beyond which a ladder to a hatch was allowed for fire company access. Flat roof requires stair.

jakesprague | 8 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you for your responses.. the roof is a flat one and seems that an interior common staircase is required. As per (one) examiner at the dob -it cannot be substituted by providing a ladder.

boredatwork | 8 years and 3 months ago

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Why didnt you just trust your architect to begin with?

jakesprague | 8 years and 3 months ago

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needless to say that architects are not infallible. I found numerous mistakes thoughout my various projects that architects have made that cost me thousands of dollars..I’ve learned my lesson and now search for the proper answers when needed. Further, the architect is often appreciative when I do correct him if and when he is mistaken. I advise all home owners to do their due diligence on every aspect of building a home. This especially pertains to far, use, layouts and lot coverage. Even on this one relatively small issue–I had conflicting responses from various architects. The code is ambiguous in many ways architects like lawyers (interpreting statutes) are often left to their own interpretations. Due you due diligence ! I cannot stress it enough. (bored at work-I hope I answered your question)

boredatwork | 8 years and 3 months ago

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I hire an expert to be the expert. My due diligence comes before when I make sure I hire the right architect, contractor, subcontactors, expeditor, lawyer, etc. I have no experience or expertise in interpreting the Building Code or, calculating FAR, etc. If I did, I would be in another line of work.

I appreciate that the code can be interpreted in many different ways, and that no one is infallible, but a good architect with experience in the kind of work you are doing, and an expeditor who works with NYC DOB day in and day out , in my experience, will know what DOB will approve. Not me.

mizael | 8 years and 3 months ago

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full bulkhead to the roof is required when going from 4 to 5 family. I filed a project to convert a basement floor that was miss categorized as a cellar. With a survey showing the baseline elevation at the curb and detailed section / height of the basement proved it was in fact a basement. The client did not want to spend the $30,000 for the stairway and bulkhead to the roof, so the project died. I thought given the value of real estate in the slope, it would have been worth it…

kimthorn10 | 8 years and 3 months ago

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my architect, after research on this very topic? told me I CAN incorporate the stairs into my 3rd floor apt which will become a duplex with added 4th floor and roofdeck. My building with is 3 floors, 3 apt. mixed use. We are moving forward with that plan. Maybe because you are 4 family its different.

brucef | 8 years and 3 months ago

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I would be very interested in hearing the rationale that would allow this, because it has not been my experience. Three or four family is same code. I never heard that mixed use affects the regulations??

kimthorn10 | 8 years and 3 months ago

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not sure if being mix use makes a diff: let me get back to you once I have a “explanation” from my architect, I do believe this was determined after speaking w. DOB and or expeditor….

kimthorn10 | 8 years and 3 months ago

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OK from my arch: “in lieu of…” is what we are working with….but my guy says the DOB is changing their interpretation of this all the time, but he is optimistic that due to the age of my building and this code we can get our way.

Code excerpt below for your review – specifically ARTICLE 7. MEANS OF EGRESS (6.1.2.1). §C26-273.0 Required Exits.- a. Kinds of required exits.-

…”2. Structures exceeding three stories above any basement in height, occupied as dwellings by one or two families, shall be provided with one stairway at least three feet in width. Such stairway shall be enclosed in fire-retarding partitions with a fire resistive rating of at least one hour, and all openings shall be protected by fireproof self-closing doors or stationary sash with a fire resistive rating of at least three quarters of an hour. Such stairway shall lead directly to the street and to the roof. In lieu of an enclosed stairway as described herein, a regulation fire escape ma y be erected on the front or rear of the structure, provided such fire escape meets the requirements of this article for fire escapes.”…

jakesprague | 8 years and 3 months ago

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Thank you Murri67. This seems to be perfect for one and two families. …but from my recollection ( and I can find you the provision upon request)it states that a common stairwell is required for 4 stories or building greater then 40 feet (for buildings with a flat roof) .. Again, this provision you site is helpful and a good resource for one and two families below 3 stories.

On a different note, I would like to ask if anyone has any insight into a how large/small a bulkhead can be..can the bulkhead contain any steps? or just the landing? I appreciate this engaging forum/thread