Disagreeing with Architect on Bedroom Size Code

You’re right about the 7′ dimension, and Randolph is right about the 80 sq ft. If you have 87 sq ft within the 7′ wide space, then you’re good. This exception has been around since the 1968 code.

As for Cate’s suggestion, the DOB did recently state that any room above 60 sq ft must meet the requirements of a bedroom. We’ve had to subdivide a storage room in a cellar to meet that requirement in a recent project. I was told by the plan examiner that this is a new policy that is being enforced even though it’s not in the code yet.

And you need to be careful about the term “office” because that’s part of Home Occupation, which is a very strictly regulated zoning use.

jimhillra

in General Discussion 2 years and 9 months ago

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richardthomas2022.08 | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Hi All! Long time reader, first time poster – love the community here.

I am beginning a renovation on my brownstone, it’s 4 story + cellar that we’ll make a triplex over garden apartment.

The triplex has 5 bedrooms total: 3 bedrooms on the top floor, and 1 primary bedroom + 1 smaller bedroom on the 2nd floor.

My architect and I are disagreeing on the size of the smaller bedroom on the 2nd floor. He is insisting that it needs to be 8 feet wide, however when I look at the 2014 code, there is a provision that says:

***
1208.1 Minimum room widths. Habitable spaces, other than a kitchen, shall not be less than 8 feet (2438 mm) in any plan dimension.

Exceptions:
3. One-half the number of bedrooms in a dwelling unit containing three or more bedrooms shall not be less than 7 feet (2134 mm) in any plan dimension.
***

To make that bedroom 8 feet instead of 7 feet actually has pretty large implications in terms of needing to relocate two windows, and making the primary bathroom smaller than I’d like.

This architect is otherwise great, has been very responsive and fast – but on this issue he won’t budge.
Any advice on what to do? Am I wrong about the 7 feet? Can I work with a different architect after we’ve submitted these plans and gotten permits to make the changes? Can I call up the building department myself somehow and ask them to review it?

randolph | 2 years and 9 months ago

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I think you can do 7′ width but the room still has to be minimum 80 square feet, no exceptions.

stickerhappy | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Well what’s his response when shown the exact code you shared above? Does it have to do with which years code it’s being filed under?

andriywww1990 | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Yes, when you have trouble making any contractor or anyone who claims to be a professional understand something, put hard information in front of them. If they are professional, they will explain to you why it is still not possible or admit they were mistaken. If they cannot explain themselves, you have to get further information and tell them where it came from and put it under their nose.

richardthomas2022.08 | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Thanks so much for the replies. The room would be 86 square feet with 7 foot width. I have put this code in front of the architect and he has just blanket refused to acknowledge it, saying his interpretation of the code is that all rooms need to be 8 feet minimum. The code is being filed under 2014 which is when this is from.

Could I just work with a different architect later on to make an alteration? Or could I just make the room 7 foot wide and see what happens during the inspection?

richardthomas2022.08 | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Thanks so much for the replies. The room would be 86 square feet with 7 foot width. I have put this code in front of the architect and he has just blanket refused to acknowledge it, saying his interpretation of the code is that all rooms need to be 8 feet minimum. The code is being filed under 2014 which is when this is from.

Could I just work with a different architect later on to make an alteration? Or could I just make the room 7 foot wide and see what happens during the inspection?

kassie319 | 2 years and 9 months ago

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Ask the architect to get his expeditor/ code consultant on the phone for their opinion.

cate | 2 years and 9 months ago

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    ["edit_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_titles"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_sitemap"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_404_monitor"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_link_builder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_redirections"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_role_manager"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_search_console"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_site_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_advanced"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_snippet"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_social"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_admin_bar"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_analytics"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

All rooms or all bedrooms? You can call it an office, storage, or walk-in closet if you like and you can still use it as a bedroom, as long as it has a window.

richardthomas2022.08 | 2 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5100 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5102 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "190152"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(20) "richardthomas2022.08"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BpXxmT60Q4HKX.XOHNgc4qvgveRkj6/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(20) "richardthomas2022-08"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(30) "richardthomas2022.08@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-10-20 05:20:35"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(190152)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Got it, thanks so much for the advice!

richardthomas2022.08 | 2 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4936 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5103 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "190152"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(20) "richardthomas2022.08"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BpXxmT60Q4HKX.XOHNgc4qvgveRkj6/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(20) "richardthomas2022-08"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(30) "richardthomas2022.08@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-10-20 05:20:35"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(61) "Your First Name Your Last Name Your First Name Your Last Name"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(190152)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Got it, thanks so much for the advice!

crosbyshawn4 | 2 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5102 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5101 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "200546"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(12) "crosbyshawn4"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BK6rXKbmwPUfIUBqUw.dNLSvDvTK2/1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(21) "crosbyshawn4gmail-com"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(22) "crosbyshawn4@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:23:51"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(12) "Shawn Crosby"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(200546)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I would just like to stipulate that the code is very complex. Just because there is an exception on this one issue, doesn’t mean it won’t trigger some other item you may not be aware of, which could be more costly and time consuming to resolve after the fact. Your architect is responsible for making the best decisions from all these layers of complexity. You could certainly ask a qualified expediter or code consultant to double check, but this is likely something your architect has already dealt with at the DOB in the past.

stickerhappy | 2 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5103 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5100 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "100776"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(12) "stickerhappy"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B22w2UCKIlYWBOfDUi2mGifya.FPZ01"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(12) "stickerhappy"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "andysclass@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(22) "/forums/users/bknites/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:32:57"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(12) "stickerhappy"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(100776)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Regardless of the complexity, the architect really should be able to give you a clear explanation of why this won’t be approved and what else it might trigger, especially if they’ve dealt with it previously.
Or insist on it and have him submit it as you want it and then if the plan examiner rejects the size of the room, then it’s settled.