Dealbreakers for buying - illegal conversions? Mechanicals replacement cost?

Hi,

This has been a very helpful forum and I’ve been reading as many threads as possible, but wanted to ask directly – I am a first time homebuyer and am looking at a legal 3-unit rowhouse built in ~1910. I’m concerned about undisclosed code violations and their effect on closing, mortgage, and also the permitting headache and cost needed to bring the building back to code.

Does anyone have knowledge of the following code violations and how a buyer should handle this? Will I even be able to purchase the property, or have my financing pulled? If I purchase the building as-is and want to bring everything up to code, will I have to pay fines for the existing violations?
-Building has no outstanding code violations, partially because prior owner never let inspector inside
-No permits on file for anything
-Cellar with no windows has a bar, two rooms, and 3-fixture bathroom (and was rented to tenants in the past – very illegal. But as it relates to code – are the rooms ok if used as storage rooms? Is a 3-fixture bathroom or bar illegal?)
-Open archways were sealed w/ sheet rock to create more rooms; one room on 1st floor has no windows
-Room on 2nd floor has no windows, has a skylight but it doesn’t have ventilating openings
-Ladder access to roof is in 2nd floor unit, not connected to stairwell

Mechanicals appear to have never been updated by current owner. I assume I will potentially have to replace electric, plumbing, roof, etc – for those that have done this, what was your cost? I will be doing cosmetic reno myself.

Thanks in advance.

Mark

bestinbrowardmovers01

in General Discussion 4 years and 6 months ago

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restorationcontractor | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Chris Petri, agreed, that’s why I suggested to him that he should think twice about it.

Like you I have been doing this so long I don’t know anything else. It’s easy to forget that most people (including people in the trades as well unfortunately) have no idea what they are doing.

Gas shutdown in an illegal reno. is not good.

I wholeheartedly agree that knowledge is power. I am glad I can pass some of it on to homeowners who need help (and usually because I cant sleep!).

lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 6 months ago

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restorationcontractor You are right, but you also know the industry. You know how to find violations and more importantly what they mean to the value of the building. A laymen though would not and could be getting in over their head very quickly. I see it way too much as someone who has performed service for new homeowners.
I just dealt with a homeowner who had no idea that the entire floor-plan of her house was incorrect and all done on illegal renovations. Now they have a large problem since the kitchen and living room were flipped on floors and they have a Gas Shutdown.
I always just preach the Knowledge is Power mantra.

restorationcontractor | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Houses are bought and sold all the time with multiple violations, heck we even bought a building that had a condemnation order I had to get lifted, that was a cash deal though.
As long as your bank will approve the financing you are good to go.
I would make sure that there is language in the contract that the seller would pay for say removing the illegal kitchen etc. if it was a requirement from the bank to obtain financing.

After you close just get yourself an architect like Jimhill and have him file the work to legalize.

Probably a good idea to keep DOB out until you have a permit.

FYI a house built in 1910 is going to have multiple things that don’t conform to current code, you just want to make sure the building is legal to the older NYC code that applies to it.

As you don’t have experience with this unless you are getting a smoking hot deal I would really think twice about it.

Right now am working on helping a friend buy an occupied 4 family that is a legal 3 that I found for him. So far it’s positive but we are still not sure it will go through. He’s in con tract, but if it doesn’t work he’s out of pocket for all his expenses as it need to be legalized for him to get a mortgage. He is getting a great deal because of this so it’s worth the risk.
(It’s not in NYC, as this would not be possible here).

lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Urbandad, as per usual, is right.
To add though: Getting an expeditor service if you are that serious about the house, and have some reservations, is not a bad idea. For a fee, they will research the house in both digital and physical records. They will tell you what the issues are, DOB wise, with the house and more importantly what it takes to resolve them.

xchx | 4 years and 6 months ago

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If you don’t do any new work that involves dob, how would they ever see inside your house?

andriywww1990 | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Two of my neighbors have had to deal with issues created by former owners. They got violations for work other owners had done illegally.

jimhillra | 4 years and 6 months ago

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I have to take exception to xchx’s comment, if we’re talking about DOB violations. Real estate agents, banks, etc. are a different story, and properties with non-compliant conditions are bought and sold all the time with no problem.

However, as far as the DOB is concerned, it’s absolutely NOT true that old non-compliant conditions are grandfathered if they have not been noticed yet. If the DOB were to gain access and see the work done without a permit, you would receive the violations and associate fines, even if you did not create the conditions. They can even come through after an initial inspection, and ad more violations that were not noticed the first time. The non-compliant conditions are susceptible to violations as long as they exist.

That said, until their reported to the DOB, they’re just non-compliant conditions, not violations. If you were to voluntarily correct them, there would be no violations or fines.

hkapstein | 4 years and 6 months ago

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The code violations probably will not stop the sale if you know what you’re doing. But it may give you headaches down the line. Look, suppose you’re a flipper who’s gonna gut the place. Do you really care what’s in there? It doesn’t matter, you’re ripping it out anyway. However, it sounds like you want to buy the place. It would be better if it were more up to code, I’d hold out from something where I didn’t have to deal with CofO issues. This place can be managed, but if you’re asking these questions here in this market it’s probably not right for you.

xchx | 4 years and 6 months ago

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A violation means the city issued a fine… what you’re talking about is maybe old work that isn’t up to snuff. If they weren’t caught in the act they are basically grandfathered in. That is all likely fine and bank wouldn’t Care. Just check department of building website for open violations: The banks mainly care that the house has the right number of kitchens— ie if it’s a legal 2 family, it should not have 3 kitchens. Also if the house does not appear habitable it would
Be hard to get a mortgage. Honestly though from your questions it sounds like you haven’t done much research and maybe should wait before buying. Maybe get a contractor to walk through the house with you- many will do this for free and give free estimates on renovations.

bestinbrowardmovers01 | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Thanks, jimhillra. In my discussions with lawyers it seems it is quite common for transactions to go through despite code violations in practice, not on record. Have you heard examples of what appraisers allow or don’t know about, and what they are not ok with that can cause financing to be pulled?

jimhillra | 4 years and 6 months ago

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There are a lot of code violations you mention, some more serious than others. In general, you’re ok as long as you don’t an inspection. If you do get an inspection, usually because someone files a complaint to 311, you would get a violation for work without a permit, maybe others, but that’s the big one. Not trying to scare you or anything, but as a 3-family, the fines for that are large. To correct the violations would cost upwards of tens of thousands of dollars in fees alone.

On top of that, you’d need to actually correct the violating conditions. At the least, the cellar bathroom would need to be made a half bath (no shower or tub), and some of those cellar rooms may need to be removed/made smaller, and the first floor room (bedroom?) may need to be modified so it’s not a habitable room without natural light & air.

The good news is that if you choose to address the work before receiving a violation, there are no fines.

ceci | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Mark, an experienced home inspector will be able to point out your areas of concern, therefore, I would start there!!!

bestinbrowardmovers01 | 4 years and 6 months ago

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Thanks for the reply. Entire building will be delivered vacant, so I’m more concerned just about the renovations being code violations (in practice, as there are no violations on file), and how it affects the transaction and how to fix them. I’m trying to figure out if I can even submit an offer, or if the transaction is doomed to fail, or how much I should underbid by for “fair value” if I have to account for costs for permitting and licensed tradesmen to undo the illegal renovations.

House was legal 3 (garden apt + 1st floor+ 2nd floor) used as 4, cellar is clearly relatively new and illegal – it’s below ground, no windows, and two rooms + 3-fixture bath were added without permits. CO does state where the apartments are, cellar is not one of them.

Question on mechanicals was just on complete replacement – I know for example cost of electrical can vary pretty wildly by how many panels etc but wanted to get a ballpark sense from anyone that has done piecemeal replacement of electrical, plumbing, roof, etc.

resident2 | 4 years and 6 months ago

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If the house is a legal 3 and is currently used as a 3 or less, no problem. Any “illegal” cellar apartment has to be delivered vacant. Does the CofO state where the apartments are? or is it an older one that is a little vague?
Only violations that are on record are concerns to the Bank, and depending on what they are, some Banks may be OK others not so.
If all the historic work was done with permits, the RE Taxes will be extremely high or many historic permits are not kept on file once they were closed.
Have a home inspector to look at the mechanical conditions to see what needs to be done.
Your question regarding costs is too vague, not knowing current conditions & what / how you want to live in it….