converting single family to two family/sprinklers needed?

SO, we are converting a single family 3 story brownstone with a cellar into a 2 family. We can make the changes to the cellar so that it qualifies as a habitable basement. But our code consultant is telling us that we have to install sprinklers in the building since we are changing to a 2 family. Can anyone corroborate this issue? Seems like we shouldn’t have to do this. The building was built in 1910.

paulr

in General Discussion 6 years ago

10

Please log in, in order to post replies!

10 replies

Newest Oldest

hkapstein | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4966 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4954 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

If you’re not changing the use group can you avoid triggering the use and occupancy change? Perhaps not if you’re adding a unit. I wonder if it’s even worth having the rental if you have to sprinkler the entire building to do it.

isabelle.schumacher | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4965 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4964 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197773"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(19) "isabelle.schumacher"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BbyBh.wTC3cc.PVI5IqfI1.G301ATi."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(33) "isabelle-schumachermail-mcgill-ca"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(34) "isabelle.schumacher@mail.mcgill.ca"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:34:57"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(19) "Isabelle Schumacher"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197773)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Yes, sprinklers requirements are per current code even if you are filing old code. If you are changing occupancy you will likely be required to add sprinklers on this alone. You first stated you are changing from single family to 2 family but then said it is staying a 2 family so not sure which it is.
Aside from this, see code 901.9.4 which requires sprinklers for areas of effected work only when cost of alteration exceeds 30% of building value. When this goes to 60%, sprinklers are reqd for whole house. This gets complicated bc building value is defined very clearly in the code as a number based on your assessed value which is almost always very low so it will be easy to hit that 30%. The alternative method of calculating building value is to submit a replacement cost estimate from an estimator / contractor and this needs to be approved separately if you face an objection – ask your expediter. This replacement cost will more realistically represent “building value.” The difference between the two can be extreme.
Lastly, you said you are changing the cellar to a base ment. Cellars are not habitable spaces and their definition of cellar vs basement is tied to the street level / window height. Assume you have some justification here.

hkapstein | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4961 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4967 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

You should talk to an experienced old code architect. It might be possible, it might not.
The code and its interpretation have gotten a lot more restrictive. If you need a new cofo I think it will be difficult. But I’ve seen some stuff get done.

paulr | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4966 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4968 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "10565"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "paul@antoniocorsi.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2008-05-18 15:29:16"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(10565)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Aaron, there is no change of CO on the building. It is listed as a 2 family residence. However, I have been told that the DOB may require sprinklers regardless of what language I find in the Code. As far as sprinkling only the path of egress; good point but one I thought of. My code consultant says every room must be sprinklered. Once again, any thoughts on this are appreciated. Putting up a good fight here but so far losing every battle.

Guest User | 6 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "200055"

Paul, if this is an alt 1 and you’re changing the C of O you might not get away with only sprinkeling the basement. The whole building may need to be brought up to current code even if it’s just the basement changing .
Is there anything about only a fire enclosed path of egress (stairs) being sprinklered if it’s the only path of egress? This may be a cheaper alternative.

paulr | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4969 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4970 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "10565"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "paul@antoniocorsi.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2008-05-18 15:29:16"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(5) "paulr"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(10565)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(0) {
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

It appears that exception 2 of 28-101.4.3 requires that the most recent code must be adhered to for life safety issues (sprinklers). In other words 28-101.4.3 is applicable but not for sprinklers. Thanks to all. Any further insight is helpful. BTW, I am hoping to argue that only the cellar needs to be sprinklered since it is changing use from cellar to basement. The upper floors have no change of use so therefore are not required to be sprinklered. I hope.

Guest User | 6 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "200055"

Here is a case where a good architect, not a rubber stamper can save you in the 6 figures. Make sure your team is extremely experienced with what you’re trying to accomplish.

hkapstein | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5002 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4988 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Since we’re citing stuff, 28-101.4.3 says “At the option of the owner, and subject to applicable provisions of this code, work on prior code buildings may be performed in accordance with the requirements and standards set forth in the 1968 building code, or where the 1968 code so authorizes, the code in effect prior to December 6, 1968.” However the daisy chaining of the prior codes has certain exceptions, so you need an architect or engineer who knows what they’re doing. My guess is if you file this properly you don’t need to sprinkler the building. Want to save your architect 20 minutes of code research and help his buddy at the sprinkler company make some cash? Go ahead and file under the 2014 code.

Guest User | 6 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "200055"

i thought this didn’t pertain to buildings under 4 story height? Code consultants can be over cautious especially when theyre not paying for a 100k sprinkler system.

jakester2 | 6 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4985 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4968 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "194189"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "jakester2"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BmexxoK27DRUhmPMtfUE/dRqbs9NNs/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "jakester2"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "jake@jacobpritcahrd.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2024-02-23 13:37:52"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(31) "jacob pritcahrd jacob pritcahrd"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(194189)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Hello , only if the property is a detached property then you wont have to do it …otherwise yes a new system is required. See the code pertaining to this (building code chapter 9

903.2.8Group R.An automatic sprinkler system shall be installed in Group R fire areas. An automatic sprinkler system shall be installed throughout buildings with a main use or dominant occupancy of Group R.
Exception:An automatic sprinkler system shall not be required in detached one-and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses), provided that such structures are not more than three stories above grade plane in height and have separate means of egress.
Hope this helps.
Thanks

Giap Flores
giap@gcfengineers.com
GCF Consulting Engineers
(607) 743-2101