Cold weather challenges when heating with mini splits

Hello Brownstoner Forum,

This is our first winter in our newly renovated townhouse where we replaced the existing forced air heating system with a Mitsubishi Hyperheat Mini Split system.

Now that the temperature has been really low, between 10-20 F, consistently for days (but no snow), we are putting the system to its first real test.

We have been experiencing large swings in the performance of the system in the past days, that cannot be explained by the swings in the outdoor temperature. The indoor unit in our living room was blowing 65F air at one point (the room temperature was set to 70F) while just a few hours later the temp of the blown air went up to 75F. In general the system struggles to keep the temperature at 70F on our parlor floor, while it is performing much better but not flawlessly on the top floor. I do see swings in the temperature of the air blown, but in general the temperatures are much higher: between 70F and 85F

It is a 3 story brownstone with a garden rental and our duplex on the top 2 floors. We have one outdoor unit for every floor (MXZ-3 C30NAHZ). The outdoor unit for the rental is in the backyard and our outdoor units are on the roof. I went through the installation specs and we seem to be well within the limits of distance / height difference bw the indoor and the outdoor units. We have individual remote thermostats for each of the indoor units (MRCH1).

My questions:
– what can cause the above described performance swings in the system?
– why is the indoor unit blowing colder air than the room temperature when it is supposed to be heating
– what can explain the performance differences between the systems for our two different floors?
– would wind protection for the outdoor units on the roof help? if so, how should we do it?

thank you.

Bence

beneec

in General Discussion 7 years and 5 months ago

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monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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No boiler, no natural gas and no oil. Just good old fashioned electric energy. If you are doing a gut then, if budget alllows, consider a solar panel system on the roof. I am disappointed I didn’t do that. I would have ended up with essentially no electric bill either.

jserpico | 7 years and 5 months ago

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I am going to undertake a gut renovation project and will definitely install the split system for cooling. I didn’t know that it could also be used for heating. Stupid question: if i use split system for both heating/cooling, do I need a boiler?

Master Plvmber | 7 years and 5 months ago

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“- tenants do not like it, because they are used to steam heat madness.”

Is that the reason? Or do they not like it because it really just doesn’t heat very well, it can be heard cycling incessantly in this weather, and it generally sucks?

(Don’t hate. Just take it from where it’s coming from: I’m a steam and hydronic heating systems specialist by trade and my preference will always be what it is.)

Augustiner | 7 years and 5 months ago

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@beneec: your unit is probably busy in the defrost cycle a lot. Or, if this is a ducted unit there are 2 modes: fan off when set temp is reached or ‘always on’ at lower speed which can lead to colder air being blown. This can be set by setting the jumpers (7+8 I believe). It’s disturbing to have cold air blowing around in winter.

I have a Mitsubishi Heatpump on the roof, and 5 air handlers for exclusive heat/cool of 4000 sqf. I works nicely for these reasons:
– it’s Mitsubishi’s H2i series which performs better in colder temperatures
– the air handlers are appropriately sized.
– my house is VERY well insulated, all major air leaks have been taken care of.

Here are the drawback:
– if you push it in these low temperatures it’ll cost serious money.
– tenants do not like it, because they are used to steam heat madness.
– ducted HVAC heating sucks in small rooms. It’s just not the best solution and it never will be

My average around is about $350 / month for heat and cool on 4.000 sqf with extensive insulation. This January is still probably $700 mainly because I a llow my tenants to go to 74 degrees, while I keep room temperature at 71 🙂 Yes heat AND cooling is included in the rent, that’s how nice I am

To anyone reading this and considering a Heatpump, get the H2i-R2 and use the waste heat from air conditioning to heat up your warm water in summer.

Master Plvmber | 7 years and 5 months ago

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I’m currently renting an apartment with heat pumps. They’ve been struggling for weeks. I listen to them day and night cycling and trying to raise the air temperature but right now they’re blowing 80° air which is barely enough to keep up with the heat loss of my living room and the moving air makes it feel even colder in here.
I am regularly contracted to install heating systems in home renovations and not one of them that uses VRF or mini-split systems DOESN’T include a hydronic boiler as a primary or secondary system to supplement the air system.
I don’t know what you mean when you say they are “efficient” when you, and the original poster, having the same experience I am in temperature swings and receiving bills for heating that are very near the bills I get for air conditioning in the summer.

allans | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Add Godfreys Air Conditioning to the list – 718 345 0729, godfreysair@aol.com – they are extremely busy though these days as they have begun to work directly with developers.

smadargolan | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Another strong recommendation: Sam Chiu, Home Air, (347) 880-4256, sc@homeairinc.com. Last fall he put in two outdoor units, two wall mounted handlers on one floor, and another in-ceiling unit ducted to three bedrooms on another floor – Mitsubishi. We’ve been using it for heat (we’re fighting with our steam system, but that’s another story) – don’t have the hyper heat, but it seems to be managing pretty well. He’s professional, clean, communicates well, and his quote was reasonable.

monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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These guys are the best, they do it all:

Eddie Chau
A.T.C. Construction Group
atc50allen@gmail.com
917.681.6006

stickerhappy | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Firstslope, who did your installation and would you recommend them?

monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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@namahs, I installed 2 exterior Fujitsu Extra Low Temperature Heating condensers (AOU36RLXFZH) at 36k BTU or 3 ton each and 8 interior ducted air handlers (2 per floor, ranging from ARU7RLF to ARU12RLF). My house is an attached brownstone with a 17×45 footprint with 4 floors + cellar and this system is our only source of heat. I set the heat to 70 all floors, additionally I replaced all windows, doors and insulated the roof. The system is very efficient (adds approximately about $200/month to the electric bill – but we use the ‘set it and forget it’ approach.

namahs | 7 years and 5 months ago

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@firstslope Can you give a breakdown of your ductless? Which model and how many unit inside? Also what temp do you leave it on? Is your house attached? We also want the ductless to work for primary heating. But for us since we have the older model, it doesn’t consistently blow warm air in freezing temp and it struggles to keep temp warm unless the fan is on med to high. We also didn’t like the blown air in our face feeling.

monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Master Plumber, our opinions diverge on this topic. At first I was skeptical too, but my experience has been wonderful for the past two winters. The system has been very energy efficient, highly controllable with multiple zones, asthetialy pleasing using in-wall/ceiling ducted air handlers and of course cheaper to purchase, install and maintain.

Master Plvmber | 7 years and 5 months ago

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The functional limits of mini splits /heat pumps in our part of the world is widely recognized and acknowledged in the HVAC industry. At some point, even though they may blow warm air, their efficiency drops drastically and they become impractical to run.

CarmenR | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Sticker I think we have regular ones. As I mentioned, we haven’t had an issue with the air coming from them being cool, they’re just expensive to run so we almost never use them for heat.

stickerhappy | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Carmen,
Do you have the hyper heat model or one of the units that is specifically designed to be more effective at down to 0-10degrees or so? We are looking at those as opposed to the more standard split units that become less effective as you go under 30 degrees.

monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Many variables, for example house size and usage day/night. When all considers the mini splits are equivalent or cheaper to run than a natural gas radiant heat system.

CarmenR | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Firstslope- maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it looked like you said your electric bill would be $400 addl to run your splits (so that would make your bill over $400 for electric) versus my estimate of $150ish total for gas (including all gas, not just the heat.) That doesn’t seem to be equivalent, unless I’m reading your statement wrong.

monaco | 7 years and 5 months ago

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CarmenR got it. So seems roughly equivalent monthly cost to run a mini split electric heat pump vs. natural gas radiator heat system in winter months.

CarmenR | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Firstslope our gas bill is typically around $100 a month but I imagine it’ll probably be closer to $150-$175 this month. That’s for hot water, heating and cooking. We have electric radiant heat in our bathrooms but its a negligible amount of $ on our electric bill (and we only really keep one running as we don’t regularly use the other full bathrooms.)