Climate Saving Retrofit For Brownstone Heat/Hot Water

See MasterPlumbers answer for the correct one. That being said: a simple Indirect Water Heater is a good start!

lkrshacmzcy

in General Discussion 3 years and 6 months ago

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qjwiaruzqstyo | 3 years and 6 months ago

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I have a four-story (plus basement), two-family brownstone in Clinton Hill. I’m looking to replace our hydronic (hot water) boiler and hot water heater with climate-saving, high-efficiency options and having no luck finding plumbers or heating consultants who can help at all, so trying here. The situation:

1. The existing heating system (hot water/cast iron radiators) works great. It’s just inefficient and the boiler is old. Hot water heater (gas, tank) is also old and not efficient.
2. Brownstone is three-floor upper unit and a garden one-bedroom. Upper unit has mini-split system that can theoretically heat the house, garden doesn’t. Backyard is small and not clear that additional mini-split could be installed there. Also concerned that the mini-split heat/configuration upstairs wouldn’t be sufficient to make the house comfortable even at lower temps (I usually keep it at 66 degrees in winter)
3. Plumbers seem to hate condensing boilers and it also seems I’d have to create some new venting that would be crazily expensive. Also condensing boilers still burn gas, even at super-high efficiency. Current boiler vents to the roof but they say I can’t use that. I do have a mostly open lot-line wall. Front and back venting don’t seem realistic given the space but I don’t know.

I have no idea what to do here and really would ideally love a pointer to a consultant or company that could help me out. But also very interested in advice or real-world experience with these systems.

Guest User | 3 years and 6 months ago

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You could do a high efficiency boiler with an indirect hot water heater to replace your old plain vanilla boiler. The reason your plumbers hate HE boilers is that they are very sensitive to piping layout, venting conditions, and when they break down can be incredibly difficult and expensive to troubleshoot. The savings they generate on efficiency are often lost on expensive parts and service calls. Id have to take look at the site to determine the venting conditions, which can be expensive, though you might be able to use your old chimney as a chase. As far as using you mini split for heating, unless your envelope is tightly insulated you are not going to be happy with either the quality of the heat or the expense of mini split heat pump heating when temperatures plunge, regardless of what the brochures say. Drop me a line at errol832000@hotmail.com if you want me to take a look

Lurker | 3 years and 6 months ago

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Money is often better spent tightening the envelope of your home—insulate your roof, get your windows tightened, maybe even fir out the walls that are uninsulated which if it’s an old home are all the walls–including your party walls. Even if you get a fancy new boiler, if your home is oozing heat from every external surface you haven’t solved the problem.

And to further Eman’s point, chasing the last few percent of efficiency is often far outweighed by costs you’ll incur to install, plus real world use may never get you to the peak efficiency. Meaning, an 85% efficient system with what you have vs a 95% system that rarely actually achieves that peak, costs $50k to install and several hundred every year to maintain and get serviced is penny wise pound foolish. Consider getting solar panels and an electric water heater!

qjwiaruzqstyo | 3 years and 6 months ago

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Yeah, that’s the direction I’m headed. I’ve already sealed the place up about as well as I can — done the windows and the insulation and the solar. I have a lot-line wall that I just had repointed — maybe missed an opportunity to insulate that from the outside, although I’m in a Landmark area and I hate covering the brick anyway. Anyway, what’s done is done.

To your point, I’m now thinking about putting in a couple of mini-split units below the floor of the tenant’s unit — access from the basement — and trying to do the whole thing with electric, maybe with supplementation from the boiler if it gets really cold. And yes, some kind of electric or at least tankless hot water. Just a question of whether the splits can handle it — maybe this winter will be a test case.

Master Plvmber | 3 years and 6 months ago

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I’m a Master Plumber, I like condensing boilers very much and have been installing them for years. Here’s what I don’t like about them: Everyone says they want one until they see the price to fit the home and system for what it takes to legally install these units and have them run safely.

qjwiaruzqstyo | 3 years and 6 months ago

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Yeah, the price to do the job right certainly seems like a limiting factor for your average brownstone owner, and the price of not doing it right seems like endless expensive maintenance. Plus even with the condensing you’re still burning gas. It’s like the Prius of home heating. I’m really hoping I can make it work with the two added mini-splits in the tenant apt and go all electric.

Guest User | 3 years and 6 months ago

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The “greenest” system that I have recently worked on is a glycol chiller with an HE backup… but really expensive equipment and complex controls [IMG_7795](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:Pyw1:img_7795.jpg.jpg) [IMG_7794](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:Wy7Y:img_7794.jpg.jpg) [IMG_7793-2](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:cPwT:img_77932.jpg.jpg)

qjwiaruzqstyo | 3 years and 6 months ago

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Very cool!

Lurker | 3 years and 6 months ago

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As reference, we have a mod con with indirect water heater and for 3000 sq ft/ 3 stories in a well insulated house our peak gas and hot water heating bill is $180 set at 72 degrees constant, winter months are usually 120-150 and non heating season it’s 30-40, which includes $16 delivery fee. We’ve had a couple repairs of a $200 part plus labor in 5 years, knock on wood. I can’t say what oil or gas with a lower efficiency boiler would be but maybe someone here can chime in. I’ve heard mod cons last 10-15 years but I can’t say if that’s true but they’re definitely not as long-lived as a cast iron boiler that can go for decades. So do the math and see what you come up with.

lkrshacmzcy | 3 years and 6 months ago

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See MasterPlumbers answer for the correct one. That being said: a simple Indirect Water Heater is a good start!