Brownstone Stoop Repair vs Entire facade
Hello-
I purchased a brownstone two years ago. My inspector mention I would need to repair the entire facade in the near future. I can’t afford to do the entire facade right now but would like to get the stoop repaired before winter. The stoop has been shedding a lot of brownstone, there are cracks and there are gaps between the stoop and the wood frame of the front door.
My question – is it worth doing the stoop now or should I just wait until I can do the entire facade? I am thinking I will be able to do the facade over the next year or two. The quote for the stoop is $8900. The facade: $40K. Pics attached. Thanks for all advice.
[Facade](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:uCra:facade.jpg.jpg)
[922 Bloomfield – stairs](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:pcwb:922bloomfieldstairs.jpg.jpg)
Guest User | 5 years and 11 months ago
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stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
i am not leaving this because i have watched people make the same mistakes with contractors over and over. Dork thinks my suggestions here are “clever lines about the wisdom of people who cannot express themselves…”. i am on here as someone who has worked in this at ALL levels since before some of the people reading this were born and have watched these problems play out in Brooklyn for over ten years now.
Professionals selecting a contractor would assume that if someone is in a business long enough that they are running a crew doing this kind of work, that they would have encountered the question the OP is proposing at least a few times and learned that having the answer and being able to state it could be the difference of them getting the job or not.
professionals will not give someone a pass if they cannot express themselves because it is part of their job to be able to explain things. If a professional really likes and wants to work with a contractor, they might do as the OP has done here, and come on here or research the issue, and then they might work with the contractor after possibly seeing the contractor can work with what the customer explained to them.
Professionals realize that as they apply “tests” to the selection process, they may inadvertently cut a talented person or team from the running. but they also realize, that there is a very good chance that the failure of the contractor to be able to address the question of the color issue over two phases (and i would not trust a contractor with something as important as this, i would go behind his back) may very well be indicative of something else; if people want to stop getting crap, they have to raise the bar and demand more.
i am sorry if my posts are too long or if i could not answer the OP’s question and diverged here. i am not coming on here as the woodworker or someone who can explain anything about mortar; i am on here because i once worked for firms selecting contractors for woodworking projects, wood floor refinishing, parapit wall repairs, and reroofing (with the exception of the woodworking and floor refinising, i knew nothing about any of these things). sometimes i was told who we should select, others times it was left completely to me but i was always part of the decision making process. after realizing that the mistake homeowners are making is in the selection process, i thought about calling one of my former bosses and asking him to help me put a list of guidelines together to help folks on here and then i realized i cannot call him and ask for his help because we had done this so much together that he would think i was an utter idiot for not knowing it and he would wonder what he had had working for him.
People are saying what i am writing is too wordy or too long. it is my belief that if people wish to learn here and protect the biggest investments of their lives, they have to read more than the short snippets we have become so used to using on the internet. i am trying to share not only knowledge, but a way of processing and understanding with people that i think is needed. keep in mind what i have said, contractors do not have these issues when they hire someone to work on their own homes because contractors know how to eliminate people from the selection process; there is no reason why none of you should be doing the same.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
dork, thank you for that reply. there is a way to get the answer to what they are looking for and i have suggested that. would you comment to that for me (and not my suggestion of another contractor) so that i can understand if people are checking things behind contractors backs the way professionals would do? is what i am suggesting useful or even understood? or is that suggestion redundant as my suggestion of another contractor? do people on here call manufacturers? (assuming someone makes a Brownstone Mortar). do they think that is bizarre? (i bet DIBS calls manufacturers; i can tell by his posts).
i am assuming that the fear here is the colors will not match or something else will look different. Contractors that i have dealt with in my life should be able to satisfy the OP’s concerns about this and i do not think it has been done here nor in a lot of other cases. its wrong.
i am with you on the caution part. i get that.
dorkofwindsor | 5 years and 11 months ago
Steve, everyone knows Amin. He has at least half of the business in park slope. You’re being perhaps a little too overzealous – this isn’t what the OP wanted (he already has quotes) and now you are speculating on things he may want. Can we give it a rest? There are plenty of clever lines about the wisdom of people who cannot explain things succinctly. I wont go there but ****please***.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
ok, a customer just came back to me with the name of the people doing her facade right now: Amin. there is a super on site and the owner or someone close to him appears everyday. the customer has done nothing but sing their praises. i can get their number is desired.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
the conservancy has a technical services center and i bet they can answer questions but then it becomes a matter of knowing if the contractor can meet what the tech people said. if someone were to talk to them and learn what they have to say and then put some questions to the contractors and watch their answers you can learn about them. if they say something is “risky” or they “cannot guarantee it”, they are being honest with you and get merit for being so (but they might not get the job). if a guy says “absolutley 100%” he can match it, he might be certain he can. at that point, ask to see a job where he did a partial restore and match the stoops to the house.
this is how contractors weed these people out so we do not get fooled by them. keep in mind, i know very little about mortar and nothing about mixing dyes in it but i would have no problem selecting the right person for the job.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
this is from the Brownstone Guide by the New York Landmarks Conservancy and they also make it sound like the contractors are adding the dye on site themselves (that would be the secret to getting a match in phase II; knowing his formula):
“Color Matching: Color matching is one of the most crucial aspects of creating a successful composite patch and should be based on a careful examination
of the existing stone. The contractor or an architectural conservator who specializes in masonry can do the color matching. Manufacturers of proprietary mixes can provide a custom color match based on a sample of the stone being repaired. Samples of proprietary mixes should be prepared in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions.”
these folks make it sound like color matching can be done in this industry just like woodworkers and painters match color to existing products; the contractor should know the answer.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
Dork, and this is a diversion from this post, but there is something I have been witnessing and I am not sure others have seen it, but there are people doing jobs and tasks and they do not know WHY they are doing them. they do not understand the preparation and how it effects the final product. for someone like myself who had realized how dangerous this is and why things fall apart when we have people working in processes, it feels to me as if the entire story has to be flushed out. As with the guys who are screwing the work up, and who might think it is ok to do the mortar in two phases, there are homeowners who do understand WHY professionals might ask the questions they do and where it might lead them and I feel that what I am saying needs justification.
I might call the brownstone mortar company and come on here with very wordy summary of that one of their folks told me just to show people what we learn when we call someone who really knows. (and by the way, back to the OP’s concern, I would very cautious about proceeding in two phases).
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
dork, not really. that is not the summary. Let’s understand what i am trying to convey here. Contractors do not know everything; i don’t. But when we hire people to work in our own homes, we do not make the mistakes that others on here keep making over and over and over again when they find themselves getting a poor job for something for which they paid a reasonable amount of money. it not that we know anything magical or even know the contractors to hire; it is that we know the questions to ask and we also know, by the answers we get, how much experience someone has.
the masons selling these jobs should be able to guide and advise the customer if it is safe to do this in two phases over years and if it is not, they should be stating so. if they cannot advise the customer, it is up to the customer to do as they are doing and not only come on here – but do what professionals do (its written in the body of text above).
If the customer properly selects a contractor, the rest should fall in line. the customer should not have to know about all this stu ff; that is the contractor’s job. the customer’s job is to find the right contractor.
Professional property managers reading what i have stated, here, above, and in other posts fully understand that this is how it is done (the selection process; never mind the work). these mistakes do not happen to the professionals. Never.
btw, for me to summarize what i know here, is nothing compared to what i’ve had to read and what i’ve had to listen to; reading what i wrote above is nothing if someone wishes to spend 100k on their facade; if they do what i say, they will be one step ahead of the contractor.
dorkofwindsor | 5 years and 11 months ago
TL/DR summary of stevecym:
“i deal with colors and finishes all the time but know very little about mortar”
YW
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
or someone else read what i wrote above and ask me to and i will call the mortar companies and get their opinions and relay them here.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
OP, if you would kindly read what i just wrote above here and if you then come back on here and tell me that you don’t want to talk to mortar companies, i will make that call tomorrow and tell everyone what they told me about doing a project in two phases over time. Now that i have suggested doing this, i am curious as well.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
i will tr y to keep this brief as this is not my area but there are some things i know because i have to buy stuff (things with color) every week and i keep a book because sometimes i have to match the same thing later. The OP is right to be concerned and asking the question is essential. but neogrec seems to think it will work.
here is what is important: the people doing the first phase will use a certain product and from what i’ve read on Brownstoner, there is a specific recommended product (“brownstone” something). if you proceed with phase A, it is your responsibility as the homeowner to go outside and either take a picture of the bag of material or grab a bag and keep it and protect it with your dear life
once you have done that, your only other concern is that the mortar company folds or screws the mixture up or changes it or if the guy performing the job is adding the dye on site, forgets his formula or refuses to tell you – as if its “proprietary”. i will add more here, i have mentioned that i have worked in processes as a tech writer (pulp and paper ) and am very aware of what some companies go through to maintain consistency of product; it is very important to places like Ben Moore and Mohawk Finishes (I am not sure about the mortar industry; it sounds kind of “untamed” to me).
to Brownstone89’s point. my experience with applying things of color or finish is that as they cure and dry for the first few months or year, they may change a little but then they stop and my suspicion is that when phase A settles, Phase B will catch up to it (so long as its not done 10 years later). this may be wishful thinking, but put the question to the tech guy at the mortar company; i wrote something very big on here the other day about how professionals learn: call the tech people at the mortar manufacturing firm and they will tell you what you need to know; these people run experiments with stuff to check longevity and weathering and they know it inside and out and will not make a false claim to someone asking pointed questions. you can ask them, “suppose we do this later with a different contractor and he adds too much water, will that change the color?” you can ask these things and they will have answers.
I got some push back on the other day because someone thinks i say too much. I can at least admit the truth: i deal with colors and finishes all the time but know very little about mortar. as someone who has had to hire contractors in a professional environment, i understand whose responsibility it is to do the due diligence and go behind the contractor’s back to decide what product you want (narrow it to a couple of them) and call the manufacturers; it is your responsibility. and firms maintain tech depts just for people like us.
i just spoke about something i know nothing about and borrowed some things i know a lot about from another industry and made some assumptions and i have told all of you how a professional (suppose one of you called me and ask me to contract the mortar job?
what would i do? this really is the contractor’s responsibility to have honest answers for the customer; but we know that’s not always the case anymore) building manager or architect would solve this problem. I can make the call right now and come back with an answer; the homeowner should being doing it.
Once a trades person has mastered the use of his or her tools, how they learn the rest of it and keep up with changes in products and processes is more important than the job itself. make the phone call to the tech people.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 11 months ago
Brownstone89: It matched for me. A skilled mason can make this work.
cate | 5 years and 11 months ago
Better to do it together.
brownstone89 | 5 years and 11 months ago
cant imagine the color will match after weathering if its not done together
dorkofwindsor | 5 years and 11 months ago
Personally I would do both at the same time. You’ll have a new stoop and then guys with air chisels in extreme close proximity. Not that it can’t be protected, but one mistake and you may cause more stress than it’s worth. Also no inadvertent mistakes on the color match.
daveinbedstuy | 5 years and 11 months ago
I used a guy named “Millad” who is in the neighborhood. He’s done a lot of facades there. No longer have the number. He would certainly tackle the stoop on its own.
suebklyn | 5 years and 11 months ago
@sunnysometimes – If you don’t mind me asking, who did you get your quote from?
vperalta10
in General Discussion 5 years and 11 months ago
Tackle the stoop first, but make sure the next contractor protects the stoop with plywood when they start the facade.