Baby bedroom directly over boiler room?
Our baby’s bedroom is directly over the boiler room- the gas boiler and hot water heaters are basically located 5’ down right under his crib in the basement.
We obviously have a CO2 and smoke monitor in his room and one outside the boiler room but is this dangerous?
I assume there are always some small amounts of co2 that don’t go up the flue and just wondering if anything more should be done from a safety standpoint.
Thanks for any suggestions.
stickerhappy
in General Discussion 5 years and 6 months ago
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stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
Imiller, thank you for what sounds like a spot on explanation; definitely something i won’t argue against.
for those who are wondering why i suggested any oxygen meter, i looked at the cost of genuine, professional level Co and Co2 meters and they were pricey; i was looking for something rolled into one. and they do seem to have air quality monitors out there that check at least some of these things. these are small things that can be set on the mantle or on the shelf in a babies room.
steve
brooklyndempsey | 5 years and 6 months ago
In a lab or industrial environment an oxygen deficiency sensor is sometimes used in areas where large quantities of cryogenic/liquified gas is handled, because significant leak could displace the oxygen in the environment. In these situations you are looking for a O2 drop of multiple %, and the ones I have worked with read out to 0.1%.
However, CO is toxic in much lower concentrations, so if you are trying to detect say 50ppm (0.005%) you are well below the typical resolution of an industrial oxygen sensor. Similarly the atmosphere contains about 0.04% CO2. If you are trying to detect say 1000ppm, that’s a change of 0.06%.
Furthermore, because nitrogen makes up most of the atmosphere, if you are using an O2 sensor you would only see a fraction (about 1/5) of the displaced amount as a change in the O2 reading, which works against you.
A typical resolution oxygen sensor isn’t going to provide much useful information if you are interested in detecting relatively sma ll concentrations of CO or CO2. Hopefully the numbers above are helpful in providing some context.
If I was trying to do this I would simply use sensor designed for CO or CO2.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
anything i said should not imply interlocking any test equipment or meters with a heating device. i was suggesting a meter as a tertiary safe guard to monitor the condition of the air in a house, not necessarily in the boiler room and not necessarily to measure CO. i am also now thinking CO2 while others are still thinking CO. Lurkar, that is why I never took MP’s reply to me as wrong; i am thinking broader. and no, people should not rely on any one device or something borrowed from one industry and brought into another.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
and lurkar, i am with you on something. if i said something that is shown to be wrong and so wrong it can harm someone, please show me what it is and if i can remove, it i will.
hkapstein | 5 years and 6 months ago
Is there a way to delete a post?
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
lurker, first off, i often do mention that people should not be following what i am saying as if it is science as i am not trained. i am asking questions. the plumber asked what i was referring to – and yes there are blowers on much of this equipment and i had misspoken in what i said. but there are still people reading this who have blowers and yes, when the heat exchangers clog, the gases escape in places they do not belong – like the house. and i would also bet that even without blowers, if the system clogs, the gasses go someplace they do not belong. i was not wrong in what i was suggesting.
with the exception of having the two gasses mixed up along with a few others and possibly the OP, i came on here knowing a lot more about this equipment than you and quite a few others on here did and i now know a lot more about detecting these gasses and the equipment used to do so because i have been reading behind all of this. (by the way, there are recommend limits on the non-poisonous CO2 and their are meters to detect it; if someone wants a healthy house, a Co2 meter might be something to consider; they are pricey)
My incorrect classification of all boilers as having blowers or forced air burners only educated more people . no one would here would take this and begin taking a boiler apart or designing a system. my statements about test equipment and meters are overly in the side of caution and if the OP or anyone else were to buy, say an oxygen meter to check displacement in their house when running gas or oil equipment and used in on top of say a CO meter/alarm (which MP already stated are sort of unreliable) they would only be moving in the direction of extreme caution. (i have a ng space heater here and i have ordered an oxygen meter; there is nothing wrong with this suggestion; no one will die from over caution and i did state that i checked on line and labs measure the presence of other gases by looking for oxygen displacement. would you have thought of that? didn’t think so). no will die; they might waste money on a pricey meter.
Lurker, i have dealt with people discussing the operation of equipment and repair of things possibly since before you and many others reading this on here were born. Men, real men, used to bounce stuff like this around all the time and if someone corrected someone, so be it; we all learned from it. Men did not pull one another down. I get it, its part of the world we live in and we often say that is what we loath about this world without understanding we are part of it-
take what you want and leave the rest.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
i am not sure just any HVAC person. I tend to think they lean more toward the cooling end of things and other sorts of units other than these boilers. and i can tell you this, i do not think the people who work on oil burners work on gas equipment as oil burner people appear to be a dime a dozen but i hear some people complain they cannot find a gas technician (possibly because the equipment does not have to be cleaned as much).
Lurker | 5 years and 6 months ago
Hey mods, steveycym is doing it again. Stevecym, if you post a comment that is later shown to be wrong and, in this case, so wrong that it may spread deadly disinformation to someone who doesn’t read through the 40-plus comments on yoru post–please go back and delete your wrong posts and dont’ try to argue it out anymore. Let the plumbers handle the plumbling questions and stop putting your 2000 cents in on every goddamn topic that comes down the line.
Guest User | 5 years and 6 months ago
i would lean towards an HVAC person, but specifically someone whose work focuses on boilers. ask them to do an assessment of the existing setup and ask for a recommendation of additional safety devices that could be added to your system.
stickerhappy | 5 years and 6 months ago
So who would be best to check out this whole situation and maybe even test to see if there even is an abnormal carbon monoxide level being released in this setup – a plumber, HVAC guy, chimney guy?
Master Plvmber | 5 years and 6 months ago
I think what you’re saying is you’d like to take the most circuitous route possible to monitoring for the presence of carbon monoxide, and that being to monitor for a decline of oxygen in the boiler room rather than for CO gas itself. No. That’s not a thing.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
i was mixed up about this until the other day as well and looked it up and may still not be referencing these gasses properly: so carbon monoxide is the bad one. it is more or less produced during incomplete combustion. but can leaky heating equipment produce enough carbon dioxide to reduce the O2 to an unhealthy level? so the question becomes, and this is for master plumber, can someone just skip monitoring various gasses which may or may not be poisonous but still be unhealthy, and monitor reduced oxygen? i am wondering it that would be altogether safer and easier and perhaps they have low oxygen alarms.
SoSlope | 5 years and 6 months ago
To clarify (as others have tried to do):
CO2 is carbon dioxide. CO is carbon monoxide. They are VERY different.
CO2 is what every person and animal breathes out. The baby in question is producing C02. No one puts a CO2 detector in their house. CO2 is not poisonous (of course, if you tried to breathe only CO2, you would suffocate from lack of oxygen).
C0 is carbon monoxide. It is poisonous. That is what you should worry about.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
master plumber. thank you for clarifying that. i assume that assumes the installation is done properly which unfortunately most of us reading this have to assume about our own houses.
for the op and others who are talking about how important it is to keep the equipment clean. this comes from experience here and mind you is on a boiler with an oil burner on it (i would not know what happens or what you will see with gas or something without a burner):
when the heat exchanger gets dirty these things happen:
1. it begins to make a different sound. it is as if it is working harder to push air through the unit. kind of in the way a window air conditioner might sound different with a dirty filter.;
2. over time, a little bit of black has formed around the flame inspection hole.
3. when i open the flame inspection hole, the flame turns back a little toward the hole (which does not happen when it is clean).
Of course all this means that stuff is not going out the flue as it should and the boiler should be cleaned. i would imagine that if you had a natural ly aspirated furnace and the heat exchanger got clogged in it, some burnt gas would vent in the house and i would bet since it is not oil it might not leave that sooty color on the equipment. my guess is it might be easier for a lay person to spot dirty oil burning equipment than dirty gas burning equipment (i took care of a pair of massive gas boilers and never had the issues i have with my own oil fired stuff).
my boiler is in need of cleaning now. when i get this oxygen meter i have ordered, i will take a reading with it running dirty and will clean it and take another reading and will come back on here and share the results (and i am going to take that reading on different floors of the house). not sure how similar they would be with gas equipment.
lkrshacmzcy | 5 years and 6 months ago
^ A great plumbing mind!
lkrshacmzcy | 5 years and 6 months ago
^ A great plumbing mind!
Master Plvmber | 5 years and 6 months ago
> @stevecym
> “An induced-draft burner uses a blower to pull air into the burner, and through the combustion chamber and heat exchanger. The fan then pushes the flue gases out through the vent. This creates negative pressure in the furnace, and may create positive or negative pressure in the venting systems.
Sidewall-vented, induced-draft furnaces have significant positive pressure pushing exhaust gases outside. ”
This and the burner on your oil-fired boiler are two very different things Your quote refers very specifically to the negative-pressure-regulated gas valve system found on high efficiency boilers and furnaces which require a draft inducer (fan) to pull open the gas valve and move the combustion gasses through to the vent terminal.
Meanwhile, an oil burner just atomizes the fuel and mixes it with air. There is no significant increase in flue pressure compared to a natural draft boiler.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
@master plumber, obviously there is different equipment out there and i think you realize my error; i should have said “some”. My oil burner forces air in and a building i worked in had massive natural gas burners with similar blowers. but you are right, my father’s very modern NG furnace is naturally aspirated and relies on the natural movement of air through the unit.
thank you for pointing this out and giving me the opportunity to clarify myself.
stevecym | 5 years and 6 months ago
at Master Plumber: what is that blower doing on my oil burner? the only reason it may not pressurize is because it might be properly vented. but there is a blower there and forcing air into anything with a seam in it is suspect. found on the web, first google response:
“An induced-draft burner uses a blower to pull air into the burner, and through the combustion chamber and heat exchanger. The fan then pushes the flue gases out through the vent. This creates negative pressure in the furnace, and may create positive or negative pressure in the venting systems.
Sidewall-vented, induced-draft furnaces have significant positive pressure pushing exhaust gases outside. ”
i did not make this up.