subfloor - pressure treated subfloor?

so i’m running in to a difference of opinions by two of my contractors. my floor contractor…someone who many brownstoners use and comes highly recommended…prefers that the contractor uses PT subfloor to avoid any warping potential due to water/moisture. The my construction contractor, who is putting down the subfloor, believes and experienced that PT subfloor is not necessary as long as there is proper water proofing and moisture barrier application, which he intends to do. plus he’s highly concerned of the chemicals that are used in PT lumber, given this new space will be a living room space. any one here have experienced the pros/cons of this?

ditmaspark

in Flooring 10 years and 11 months ago

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mruby36 | 10 years and 3 months ago

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PT wood of any variety is wood thats been infused with chemicals that are highly toxic. I really dont know what or how much it off gasses or what it would contribute to the “interior pollution” of the space above it, but it cant possibly be worth the risk. Altering the assembly in reaction to the problem seems to me to be the wrong way around. The best assembly (what wood, insulation, sub floor, underlayment and finish floor) should be as chemical free as possible or practical. If you think you need PT, it must be because you think there is a moisture problem. The best solution is to solve the moisture problem. Period. If the ground under the floor it wet or worse, find the source BEFORE you craft a solution. Sometimes a simple rough concrete slab over the dirt will suffice. Try venting or create a cross-draft so moisture can migrate out, like gortex for your crawlspace. Or a dehumidifier. Investigate and solve the moisture problem and the rest is simple. Feel free to contact me if you wish. Best of luck! Matt R www.nyc-hs.com

ldduong | 10 years and 3 months ago

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I bought some PT for my subfloor and it will be used in the living room area. My foundation is on beam and will be insulated. I did not know different types of subfloor or wood type shoud be used. But thought it was a good idea to use the PT wood since it has been treated. This wood has no tougue or groove some contractors have said that it was not a good idea to use without tongue and groove, because the edges will lift later. It was an expensive buy, bought it for few months now but have not installed them permanently to the floor. Is it a good idea to use it or just replace it with a regular OSB with tongue and groove. Please help! I would hate to waist this PT wood. What is the true pro and con harm by using it??Thanks,

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 11 months ago

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i’m sure PT is overkill and is not supposed to be used inside (i plead ignorance and don’t know what chemical is used currently). However, if i could go back and use PT from the beginning i’m sure the termites who ate our home would not appreciate it. But I sure would. To termites it is as if it were steel. There’s probably a better way to treat regular subfloor ply with borate or something, and i would absolutely do it if i were gutting a new house or doing an extension. So yes, your original contractor is either thinking ahead (good), or trying to compensate for future moisture that is not being accounted for (bad). I am probably in the camp where i tend to prefer over-design or over-engineered things fwiw.

mruby36 | 10 years and 11 months ago

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Never thought PT plywood would inspire such a passionate debate… My vote, PT ply is not needed, 3/4 T&G subfloor GLUED to the joist should suffice. Not sure anyone raised gluing the ply to the joists yet. As for PT, any thoughts on PT for the framing? Its the joists that I would use PT for, just sayin. Best of luck. Matt R www.nyc-hs.com

Townie | 10 years and 11 months ago

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I guess you would need to know the joist span to determine the required thickness but i would imagine 3/4 inch tongue and grove untreated plywood properly applied using the correct fasteners and spaced for expansion would hold up. I think like with any extension addition moisture and heat loss would be the two biggest concerns. I would think an architect familiar with your climate conditions would be the best bet at ensuring the proper build. Do people treat for termites on new construction in Brooklyn?

rh | 10 years and 11 months ago

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I have no problem with not filing for interior projects when it’s cost prohibitive. Lordy knows I’ve done it myself plenty of times, always to code. But an extension? That’s kind of nuts. It’ll come back to bite you in the ass, even if it’s 10 years from now when you go to sell the house. It’s actually costing you already, hiring contractors who don’t know what they’re doing. If you don’t know your stuff, then you need an architect and/or contractors who do. No offense to any of the fine contractors here, but some of those guys are like snake oil salesmen (no offense to any snake oil salesmen here). PT is overkill if it’s not lying directly in the soil. And you shouldn’t be anywhere near the soil. There is concrete poured, right?

Bond | 10 years and 11 months ago

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Green Mountain-We all know from your posts that this is a sore point with you, and I understand where you’re coming from. That being said, the point remains. Going through channels adds tremendous cost onto a project and doesn’t ensure that the project will go any smoother. Add to that the fact that even with permits you still get cases of wage theft, illegal dumping, safety violations, then add on clueless inspectors, red tape and time delays and you can see why people circumvent the system. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I do think that the city is trying to fix things and they have gotten better. Still a long way to go though. Apologies to DitmasPark for hijacking the thread. Go with regular plywood!

Green Mountain | 10 years and 11 months ago

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There are social benefits to doing it legally. I can not offer the cheapest service, but when I hire workers, they pay their taxes, and I pay their taxes and I provide workers comp insurance, and now if their are 5 of them they have paid sick days. The other way often involves wage theft, illegal dumping, safety violations, etc. Tea party members may disagree, but you don’t have to own a house in wealthy city. Legal compliance is more expensive, but don’t we want some effective regulation? Don’t we want an even economic playing field for people who produce and maintain safe, long-lasting housing? We can change laws. A lot of new legislation is coming from citizen groups now. isn’t home improvement an area in need of policy change as much as transportation policy? Would anyone like to propose legislation?

Bond | 10 years and 11 months ago

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Well, permits are a good thing, but when you have a situation (like you do in NYC) where the cost of permits and an architect can almost equal the cost of a modest extension, you can see why people go without. Not something that I’d roll the dice on, but I can certainly understand why people do.

argylerd | 10 years and 11 months ago

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Does “new extension, no architect” , mean no permits either? I wouldn’t trust the advice of a contractor who would do an extension without an architect and permits.

Bond | 10 years and 11 months ago

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Supposedly the new pressure treated plywood is much safer with no casual exposure risk (Of course they said the same thing about CCA years ago). That being said, there is really no need to go with anything other than a standard plywood subfloor. The whole point of plywood in the first place is that is relatively stable. I use an exterior grade on my own work. CDX plywood is pretty cheap in the scheme of things, and unlike the PT stuff, you can use regular fasteners.

thetinkerswagon | 10 years and 11 months ago

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also, I have to take up your question about health concerns. and I have to add to what qnscouple says that it should never be used inside. the reason they are saying this is the answer to your question about health. now, the industry has agreed to stop using copper chromium arsinate, but I do not think we want to put the lives of our children on what the industry has chosen to replace this nasty chemical with. I am not saying it will kill you – I am 50 now and if i did not have a child and did not have to put others at risk, I may lay that stuff down on my floor and think I will live to 80 anyway. would I put a pt subfloor in and let my 8 year old exist over it until he leaves for college. absolutely not.

Green Mountain | 10 years and 11 months ago

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“not wanting to start a thread about NYCs codes on this particular product…we know where the city stands on this, which is complete BS.” Ditmaspark on ventless gas fireplaces from a prior post.

qnscouple | 10 years and 11 months ago

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“new extension, no architect” Kind of says it all right there. PT subfloor should not be used on the interior for many reasons. If your flooring contractor doesn’t know why it shouldn’t be used I would be wary of having him install floors for me. And a new extension should not have ground/earth under it but instead should have at least a slab with proper vapor barrier and drainage built into it.

thetinkerswagon | 10 years and 11 months ago

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pt warps all the time. it takes in moisture and it gives off moisture just like any other wood and in doing so it will warp. the difference is that the living things that cause decay will not survive in the pt.

Green Mountain | 10 years and 11 months ago

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I am a big fan of reading the instructions, even when the job seems “conventional.” The forum is a good place to get additional advice, but first, I highly recommend contacting the distributor or manufacturer of the bamboo. They may tell you what kind or thickness of plywood, or osb, and how to install it. Probably the product will come with instructions, and contact info. For instance, do they recommend leaving gaps under the baseboards for expansion? Good luck

ditmaspark | 10 years and 11 months ago

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new extension. no architect. bamboo. i sense going with conventional plywood for subfloor is good to go.

Green Mountain | 10 years and 11 months ago

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I never saw PT used that way. I can’t imagine any interior use for it. I would want to know how dangerous it is to touch or inhale, and after it enters the waste stream. It used to be toxic, but they changed the formula. I suspect the benefits are short-lived or as a substitute for more expensive solutions. Is it a new extension? If so, what material did your architect specify? You did not mention what floor covering you are installing over the subfloor. Hardwood? Tile? Carpet?

ditmaspark | 10 years and 11 months ago

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i don’t think i’ve missed anything. again, this is a new extension on the first floor. under the floor is the ground, i don’t know how far above the ground the joists are but it’s more than code (plenty of space to crawl under). the joists will have fiberglass insulation, and then covered with rigid insulation. again, the building contractor doing that job is confident that that will be more than safe with regard to humidity, temps, etc. but so far, from the two responses here, it sounds like PT is not a ‘must have’ for the subfloor.