Insulation over brick wall

Has anyone installed insulation over a brick exterior wall (back wall, in this case)? The wall needs work, and this would be an opportunity to make the house more energy efficient and comfortable. We can get drawings. What material and/or system did you use, who did the work, how did it turn out?

casey.mullin

in Exteriors 1 year and 6 months ago

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justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Vard, why not tell us the product you are looking to use? i might have to talk to some people about these products anyway and i will toss questions at them. I am seeing this stuff on roof tops where people built staircases or little rooms or modified back walls to make a door onto a roof and EVERY one so far has had some issue with water (which is why i took the EIFS class). i will get answers for you.

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Thank you. I want to use some non toxic insulation board just not foam. But I have a solution just not the installer.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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vard, there is a mason working near here (a real mason) and i asked him if he knows of anyone who does traditional stucco over metal lath and he told me it is getting very hard to find those people. i will keep asking. i might have to visit extech supply in the next week or so and will ask.

Circular, in order to get those manufacturer-level warranties most product manufacturers require that the installers be certified. this is where things often fall apart: the customer shops around and finds the certified contractor costs 1.5 times the non-certified contractor and they choose the lower price.

coreenc2018 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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EIFS is a tried a true method to significantly boost energy performance, but it must be done properly to manager water inside the assembly. You will want an installer that specializes in these systems and will both install a continuous water barrier and also provide a manufacturer-level warranty. It will be very difficult to avoid foam since the combined low weight, water resistance and insulating properties are not found in any other non-petroleum based materials.

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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It’s not difficult to do, installers are reluctant to use a foam alternative.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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What gets difficult about it? Look up DEFS.

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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I know you can do it without foam but that’s where it gets difficult.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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vard, the foam is for insulation, obviously. i am sure there are people who know how to do traditional three coat and in truth, we had a stucco facing fail on an outside staircase once (on the side of it) and we had a guy come along and use diamond lath and mortar to refinish it. that was 25 years ago. There were guys all around doing this stuff the old way but most are probably gone or on their way out.

if you google it you will find someone. i did this morning but i know nothing about that company’s work so i do not want to mention them here. Google “traditional three coat stucco new your city”. you will find them.

it is pretty much the same process as plastering inside a house just the finish materials are different. and of course could have felt paper or barrier on wood. on old but stable concrete, no felt paper.

Also, look up DEFS as this can go over cement board and it can be done without foam.

i knew nothing about this crap two weeks ago. now more than ever, i am with you: traditional three coat.

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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@homeinspector thank you. I talked to about 5 or 6. They all do stucco but all of them would only use foam and the first layer.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Drivit and Master Wall certify their installers. with these companies, they will not issue a warranty unless you use a certified installer.

Sto does not but sto makes them attend a seminar. sto told me regional distributors maintain a list of competent installers known to them.

vard, to your question about someone who does not use foam, there is a contractor who, according to their website, does traditional 3 coat stucco here in NYC.

i can suggest why people will have trouble finding competent people in this industry. Certain labor intensive industries draw people who think things are easy to do – including painting and roofing. maybe replacement window installation and siding (lower end, not high end windows). Most of these people have NO training. There are certified installers out there but the issue is, because of the influx of untrained people (who take short cuts and will outright cheat after being told not to do something) they make it harder for the professionals to survive because the professionals will take their time and do things by the book and they will lose jobs to people who can outbid them by rushing through jobs. what i am saying is, you can find competent (certified) people out there who train their team and take their time but know you will pay 1.5 times or even double of what a “fly-by-night” will cost. Keep in mind, the problems do not show up until long after the check has cleared.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Reno123: the negative issues with these products are the water intrusion. The underlying material – be it foam or rock wool – will not make a difference on the outcome if water gets in.

Vard. People are still doing traditional stucco over felt paper using diamond lath and three coat. It finishes the wall nice but offers no insulation. It is discussed with EIFS systems.

Cement board is an acceptable backer on some systems.

I have to do some more research today for my customer and will find out if any companies certify their applicators.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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With respect to the EIFS system which others mention and i call “fake stucco” (derisively). i had to do a roof and wall inspection a week ago and this included inspecting the EIFS on a wall on part of a building. This spurred me to take a class on EIFS and Inspecting EIFS and this is what i learned about it:

There are several systems made by several manufacturers (Drivit is the largest in so far as market share). along with their products and instructions and standards, the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) has issued standards on the application of these systems (i purchased a copy).

In addition to manufactured systems, contractors make “bastardized” systems where they buy product off the shelf and apply it (probably without understanding what they are doing). these systems are not tested and approved by any sort of expert and i would guess that many of these contractors have never even heard of ANSI.

There are several different systems but i can say we can break them into two categories: Barrier systems that work by keeping water out complet ely and Water Managed systems that will make allowances for leaks and have a system in place with a moisture barrier to direct water down and out of the system near a roof line or ground level.

On the barrier system, once a leak occurs, moisture will more than likely get trapped and cause problems. on the water managed system, if water gets in but someone has not assembled the system correctly, the water can become trapped and/or leak into the building.

Most of the failures appear to occur because the people installing the product do not follow manufacturer’s directions or use they use unapproved products by mixing systems (bastardization).

I would be very careful if i were going to hire a contractor to apply one of these systems. if it were my house, i would get a copy of the manufacturer’s instructions and i would watch every layer they apply in the process and look at every joint. the manufacturer’s directions include detail drawings. I have already called one manufacturer of the EIFS products and will call another and will ask if they certify their contractors.

I am available to inspect these system to identify possible points of water entry or incorrect installation.

Steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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You should be ok below grade. Make sure there are no gaps between the boards.

slimc | 1 year and 6 months ago

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I’m wondering if these concerns with using rigid foam board over brick also apply to below grade concrete (basement walls) ?

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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You said EIFS which usually implies Sto, Dryvit etc. spec foam. I had many conversations with Sto and their systems are specced only with foam. Let us know if you find an installer who is willing to not use foam.

Are you landmarked and are you freestanding? What is your brick coated with?

casey.mullin | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Thanks, vard01. No, I wouldn’t do styrofoam but instead use rockwool board, which is highly flame resistant. Vapor, mesh, stucco is an option. My understanding is that a Sto system recreates that but may work better. Not sure.

hasibur.rahman07 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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I researched this extensively and decided against it. I didn’t care for the idea of flames to traveling up the rear wall when there is a fire. Why not rockwool, mesh and then stucco it smooth. Most contractors will want to do EIFS because that’s what they know and stuccoing over rockwool will be a lot more work. Also if you happen to be landmarked it is not allowed.

casey.mullin | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Thanks, all. The wall has a coating and removal will damage the bricks, and repointing will not be an option. The wall will be parged and could get rockwool insulation board covered with either a rainscreen stucco assembly or an EIFS system. I know that someone with a similar situation posted earlier this year, and I thought that poster or another with experience with exterior insulation could report on their choices and outcomes. I’d love to know.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Also, if you insulate from inside, follow protocol with vapor barriers. And vard says dont use foam (spray foam on inside) and i am dealing with a leak on a brick wall and all that foam does is trap moisture. I have another leak on a brick wall with a vapor barrier and fiberglass insulation and the fiberglass has been protected and will not have to be replaced.