Renovation Coach? Anyone ever use one?
Having been in the minority and supportive on this thread, just curious how you worked this one out bedstuy…? Best of luck Matt R www.nyc-hs.com
mruby36
in Construction 12 years and 6 months ago
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bedstuytownhouse | 12 years and 7 months ago
Hi all, Wondering if anyone has ever used a renovation coach and, if so, what the experience was like…would you do it again? What were the costs associated with this service? I think the idea of a percentage-based compensation model would be a turn-off for obvious reasons. Trying to save $ on our next big push reno and there are certain aspects that we are capable of overseeing ourselves but a couple of things we would want an experienced professional to handle. Thanks everyone.
steam_man | 12 years and 7 months ago
Oh my God. Does such a thing exist?! I could be a renovation coach! What do you expect the coach to do? I mean would he just guide you or would you expect them to be like an Owner’s Rep? So much fun!!!
greenmountain | 12 years and 7 months ago
Its not a joke. There are other ways to commit fraud. If this is how you want to do it, just don’t let the coach handle money. You are responsible. If we call the coach a Contractor, General Contractor or Employer by any name, they require a Workers’ Comp Policy under one of the most expensive classifications in the construction industry (“Carpentry, Not Otherwise Classified” 5403). The workers would be insured at the rate of about 20% of payroll (the rate doubled in 4 years and continues to climb) and payroll taxes (the rate is nearly stable) would be deducted also at the rate of about 20%. With a Renovation Coach, the home owner could pay workers in cash, pay a foreman or manager also in cash, and somehow the coach would keep every thing moving in the right direction, at about 40% savings on labor. Unless of course somebody gets hurt and a nosy hospital employee asks if it happened at work, or somebody lets a DOB inspector inside, or maybe the DCA follows somebody from the parking lot of Home Depot to the house with a big load of sheet rock, pipes or wires. In one or more of these cases, their might be some unexpected delays or expenses, but otherwise the coach idea is great. Have I got that about right? What am I missing?
Augustiner | 12 years and 7 months ago
I think the first step would be to define what exactly you expect from this person/job
bedstuytownhouse | 12 years and 7 months ago
When I say a coach, someone that can interview and review pricing from say, for example, an HVAC contractor to ensure we are not getting hit with unnecessary pricing or to advise a more cost-effective way to get us to our ultimate vision. I’m not looking to have anyone unlicensed or uninsured working in our home. Make sense?
Augustiner | 12 years and 7 months ago
So you mean a Construction Manager to help you choose and coordinate individual trades? In my opinion that makes sense if you do a partial upgrade. If you do a full reno, there is a chance that you’ll end up in trouble. If you (your coach) try to coordinate 5 subs that have no relationship with each other, delays and additional expenses are quite likely. If I was a CM I would push you towards using Subs I worked with before just to be safe, and then you might as well just work with a good GC, which is the least hassle in the end.
eman134 | 12 years and 7 months ago
it seems like a stupid idea…you expect to pay a flat or per diem fee and get someone to vet your contractors and coordinate the trades on a timely basis… it will not happen.
Springs | 12 years and 7 months ago
Renovation coach….that’s hilarious, but in this day and age, anything is possible if someone can Google something. How about just doing it the old fashioned way and hiring a reputable GC, and make sure that the stick to their budget as best as possible ( and timeline )….
greenmountain | 12 years and 7 months ago
Of course you’re “not looking to have anyone unlicensed or uninsured working in our home.” But, you want a “more cost-effective way to get us to our ultimate vision.” Your vision is OK, but your eyes are closed. The way a contractor saves money is by treating employees as independent contractors, which leaves the tax-paying to them. Paying off the books is how an HVAC, or any contractor or sub, avoids workers’comp insurance. NYS passed the Construction Industry Fair Trade Act in 2010 to address this problem. But, home owners don’t want to pay more, so HVAC and other renovation contractors, continue paying employees in cash. The other ways to save money just don’t add up to much. It’s easy to pay off the books without clients observing it directly. In this forum a service called “cash zone” was promoted to contractors. When I pressed, the business owner wrote the cost was 2% to cash a check from a home owner, plus a small initial fee. That’s 2% of payroll to “turn your check in to cash” vs about 40% for payroll taxes and workers’ comp. All your shopping for cheap fixtures on the internet won’t save anything close to that, and not using local, full service vendors, could lead to more mistakes, evaporating your smaller savings. You could try to get along with the old wires and pipes, even though you are advised to update them, but that could cost you a lot more money later. The long proven way to save money is by fraud. Nationally, we have a $16-17 trillion economy and about $2 trillion unreported. Construction (including renovation) is obviously a big part of the unreported economy. As for licensing, the reason why the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs can only license 1,400 Home Improvement Contractors (in a city with over 3 million housing units) is the much higher cost of operating legally. As Anthony Gorman of the NYS Dept of Labor told me: he didn’t examine my financial records in an official financial audit because “everybody in your industry is cheating.”
7andfive | 12 years and 7 months ago
I think what you’re asking for is a project manager. Someone that can help you select contractors, architects and designers and then manage the process. Renovation coach seems to be a lame name for a project manager. There are tons of independent project managers- also sometimes designers or architects take on this role, since it’s their vision. Look on the Brownstoner directory or I can email you a few names.
bedstuytownhouse | 12 years and 7 months ago
Yes, I think a project manager more accurately describes what we are looking for. It’s not as if I am against hiring a reputable GC but there are certain parts of the job that I don’t need them to oversee like installing a new hatch on our cellar…we had one quote from a GC who wanted to charge us $2500 for that and $15k for a Mr Slim-like unit when I know their sub was charging them $4500\.
mruby36 | 12 years and 7 months ago
At the risk of getting pounded, I’ll attempt the other side of this. Before I do, I do have to agree that I’ve never heard of a reno coach, that is different for sure. What you may be looking for is Construction Management, and there are various types within that profession. Project management sounds similar but a PM works for a contractor running the contractors projects and has only incidental relationship with the owner, not direct or contractual. If much of the above sentiment is true, and I’m not disputing any of the kind words expressed, then IF you COULD find someone to help you work through a complicated process, IF you COULD find someone you could trust, and or set up a logistical and financial arrangement with someone that would put you on the same side of the table with respective interests aligned, what would be wrong with that? A lot of “IF’s” and skepticism I know. Construction Management is a profession, and has its specific intents, parameters and safeguards, has been around for a long time, and has enjoyed much successful execution. Call it hiring an advisor, a consultant, an advocate, whatever. I dont like “financial advisors” but they do have their place… for some. My FA opinion aside, many people go to a financial planner for help working through a complex process that they are not an expert in. Are you an expert in construction matters? Or are you an expert at whatever it is you do for a living. The hard part is not understanding the value of hiring a given professional, the hard part is finding a professional worth hiring. The construction industry has some great people, but boy are we outnumbered. So paradoxically, that is both the reason to seek a CM and possibly the reason to shy away. More years ago than I care to think about, I had a customer propose a CM arrangement to me. It was his idea to hire an advocate to work “for him” to work through from beginning to completion of what at that time was a 750k renovation. I worked with him and his architect, each component of the project was articulated clearly and if a given sub came back with something we had missed, the suggestion was disseminated back to the others bidding that piece of the work. All correspondence was cc’d all ways, all communication, contracts, bid amounts etc, and communications back to the contractors was shared. No “back ends” no BS. I was paid well. I knew it, and he knew it because it was is idea to set it up that way. And, the owner cut checks directly. No cash by the way. So unlike the other comments on this, I think that if an owner seeks a CM to work with as an advocate and knows how to set up such an arrangement so that respective interests are aligned and no conflicts of interest exist, that this is a brilliant approach to a project. Feel free to contact me for further discussion. Looking forward to getting pounded, Matt R www.nyc-hs.com
nycdesignerr | 12 years and 7 months ago
So, you want someone who actually has all the knowledge and contacts of a GC to perform 90% of the work of the GC, but for less than half the price? The only way that will happen is if you get a total BSer who doesn’t know enough, or you get a GC who will NOT assume responsibility for the project. You’ll still stay in the official GC capacity yourself. THe subs will work for you. And if anything goes wrong, like you failing inspection or someone gets hurt on the job, YOU will be the responsible party for that. If you want to self GC the job, you’ve got to put on your big boy pants and actually self GC the job. There aren’t any shortcuts worth doing that will cut either time or money without a lot of investment in education and time spent by you. The free lunch doesn’t exist.
Springs | 12 years and 7 months ago
Renovation is no joke…get a pro. If you want to manage the job yourself, ask yourself this question : Would a construction company hire me as a site foreman, responsible for on site work…and also hire me in the capacity to run the paperwork side. If the answer is no, why would you want to take on the task of supervising the renovation of your own house. All the google searches and blogging in the world is no substitute for hands on experience in the construction field. As far as a renovation adviser, cutting out the GC exposes you to huge liability. This is from a construction proficiency standpoint and financially from work-related injuries. There are lawyers lining up to help undocumented workers ( whether they are here legally or not ) , cash day laborers, etc to sue for unpaid wages. The contractors have no way of proving they paid these people, yet somehow they workers have proof they did the work . It’s happened to a few contractors out in Long Island that I know, they had to settle out of court because it was the much cheaper route than fighting it in court.
bedstuytownhouse | 12 years and 7 months ago
Ok, I don’t think I’m being understood…I’m not looking to hire the guys haning out in the Home Depot parking lot or anyone without a license. It’s just rather than paying the GC for the upcharge on managing an HVAC CONTRACTOR, for example, key word CONTRACTOR, who has a license and is insured, have someone analyze their qualifications and whether the quote is appropriate. Most of the stuff and far from 90% of what we need done, NYCdesignerr, is straight forward and I’m not looking to attempt to oversee anything major but like I said, I don’t need to be upcharged $1500 for a hatch to my cellar so a GC can handle it.
greenmountain | 12 years and 7 months ago
Bedstuytownhouse: I understand most of what you say. You want an independent, experienced adviser on your side. But, the part about licenses and insurance… I am not suggesting you will hire guys offering their service in parking lots or on street corners – though many home owners do. I have heard home owners say they will only hire licensed and insured contractors, but than I found out, they didn’t. They certainly were not required to. The people they hired were either cheaper, or made more attractive promises. The DOB licenses plumbers and electricians and registers GC’s so they can pull permits on commercial or residential jobs. The DCA licenses Home Improvement Contractors (HIC’s). I let my registration with the DOB lapse until I need to pull a permit, which is no longer a big part of my specialty, yet I maintain my HIC and Sales licenses with the DCA. While the law requires individuals negotiating work for $200 or more with a home owner to be licensed, there are only 1,400 licensed HIC’s. Many well-established, highly-skilled, reasonably-priced and respected contractors are not licensed. Many unlicensed contractors carry liability insurance and even worker’s comp, though they may not keep all there employees on the books. Some unlicensed contractors deduct payroll taxes. Still, the DCA has failed to license the vast majority of HIC’s. License requirements (tax and labor law, especially the rapidly rising cost of workers’ comp) place contractors at a competitive disadvantage. Home owners by law must hire licensed plumbers and electricians, but not HIC’s. You can hire anybody you like for most kinds of work. What sort of licensed contractors will you hire? What will you do if the contractors who show up, or the ones you prefer, are not licensed? Will you pay by the hour or “time and materials”? Licensed contractors work by the job, only. To find out if your contractor or sub is a licensed HIC, search on NYCDCA, go to the Instant License Check in the upper right of the home page, and enter your contractor’s name and the names of the principals. Try a few checks, because your contractor may be there, but the name or name of the firm may be easily confused.
mruby36 | 12 years and 7 months ago
Bedstuy, Has any part of this discussion thusfar addressed what you ARE trying to do? I’m the minority of 1 that thinks I understand what you’re looking for and agree with the approach. Problem, you poked the hornets nest. The overriding theme I hear in this discussion is the GC knows what to do and the owners should fall in line because to do otherwise invites disaster. Further in support of this, owners should be well schooled in how to flush out the bad apple contractors because there are so many bad and so few good. My sense is that you’re trying to get a little help, specific to YOUR needs, by thinking outside the box. Smashing paradigms brings out the defense of the turf. The GC is the knowledgable one, the owner is the studious observer with a checkbook and the widely agreed upon number of bad apples out there, to me is a circular argument and I support the effort to take some control and alter this mold. Construction Magement is its own profession, separate and apart from the GC model. There are a range of arrangements to be considered depending on scope and complexity of your project. If your project is on the more simple and less complex end of the range, there are suitable agreements to be struck. If concept comes before design, the key then is to align interests, eliminate conflicts of interest, and be prepared to pay a reasonable fee. Reasonable fee, if transparent, is a moving target of course but those with faith in an owners abilities might say you’ll know it when you see it. Hope this helps! Matt R www.nyc-hs.com
c_w | 12 years and 7 months ago
Simple question, and a simple answer. Unless you have no time to spend on doing the things you want the “renovation coach” to do, there is no reason to hire one. What are your objectives? 1- Feel comfortable w/ pricing: Get multiple bids. 2- Don’t want the GC to charge for certain things?: Don’t include them in the GC’s scope of work. 3- If the scope of work warrants it and you want another knowledgeable consultant involved?: Hire an architect.
fawn | 12 years and 7 months ago
My architect and our project manager within the architect’s firm do a lot of what you’re asking for. They are our advocates with the GC, put together the bidding for the project and reviewed bids, negotiate change orders, and generally keep project costs in line. Their advice has paid the construction management fee several times over.