Rules regarding a party wall
bruce – I’m not arguing for the party wall, nor am I trying to pick a fight, but it’s important to point out that it is illegal to pocket a floor joist into the masonry chimney breast, not only because of the one-wythe of brick issue that you raise, but also because of the potential for the joist to catch fire when exposed to the chimney. It’s for this reason that the joists are cut and supported by a header that extends to a joist on either side of the chimney, not only on the side with the fireplace, but also on the neighbor’s side. This is why we often see joists cut and headered when there is no chimney breast on that side of the wall; there’s one on the other side.
dazednconfused2
in Building Code 10 years and 6 months ago
11
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stickerhappy | 10 years and 6 months ago
I have a vacant lot that I am looking to build on. There had been a building on the lot long ago (I know from tax photos), but there has not been a building on the lot for at least 25 or 30 years. On one lot line of the vacant lot is a neighboring building. According to the survey, the wall of that building is a party wall. Am I able to use this party wall to support my new building? Do I need his permission? if so, what happens if he says no? Can I still find a way to use it if there survey says it is a party wall? I aim to keep it friendly and will definitely ask face-to-face, but I want to know my options if he says no. I would be building just as tall as the neighboring building. Since the lot I am building on is fairly narrow, I’d prefer not to build my own wall on that side since it will take a up a few more precious inches. Any thoughts on how these situations are handled? I’m new to the topic of party walls so anyone who has some experience to share would be great. Thank you!
zag0r | 10 years and 6 months ago
No, you’re not invited to that party, must make your own to party.
dazednconfused2 | 10 years and 6 months ago
It’s often possible to use that party wall. It depends upon the structural stability of the wall, as well as your neighbor’s willingness to allow it. If your neighbor agrees, you can use the party wall and file a Party Wall Easement with the city. As far as I know, there’s no legal way to require your neighbor to allow you to use the party wall. If the neighbor does not agree, then you could minimize the thickness of the structure by building with steel instead of masonry. It may be more costly, but it saves inches while providing cavity space for insulation. Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP Urban Pioneering Architecture
stickerhappy | 10 years and 6 months ago
Thanks for the advice. I have a feeling he will not agree to it. Isn’t like 6″ of that party wall technically mine though? How can he keep me from building on my property (assuming it can handle it structurally)? It is clear that the wall once supported another building.
dazednconfused2 | 10 years and 6 months ago
You can certainly make the argument that legally that 6″ is yours as a means of persuading the neighbor, and it may be an effective tactic. I’ve seen applications go through the DOB for party wall construction without providing the party wall easement, so I believe the new building would get approved without your neighbor’s explicit approval. However, that doesn’t mean that the neighbor won’t hire an attorney to look for ways of preventing you from doing it. At that point it comes down to property law, and the question is better answered by property lawyers.
Arkady | 10 years and 6 months ago
I’d write to him as well as speaking w/ him so you can enumerate your arguments & to have a record of what you’ve proposed. It may be that if you cite a desire to avoid a prolonged legal hassle he’ll be more agreeable & won’t want the expense of lawyers. If he seems to be almost compliant, you could offer some kind of insurance to cover possible damage.
shahnandersen
in Building Code 10 years and 6 months ago
Check your survey as to what is technically yours. More important, are you sure that the party wall is 12″ thick or more. Many are only 8″. And, have you confirmed that the use of that party wall will meet the current codes for your new building?
joearchitect | 10 years and 6 months ago
While it may be technically possible to use the party wall if it is in good condition, I think it is not going to be worth the aggravation and risk involved. Most engineers are not going to sign off on a design which relies on the stability of a wall built long ago with unknown strength and integrity. The construction itself has the possibility of damaging your neighbor’s house as you cut pockets for the joists or bolt into it, etc. Chimney flues are often centered on the property line and you may be one brick away from putting a hole in their flue. Although it is a shame to loose a little space, the construction will be much easier and better if you just build your own new structure. Use a steel structure as suggested above and you wont lose that much space.
zag0r | 10 years and 6 months ago
Joearchitect has summed it up, especially the part with structural integrity, engineers and easier construction which translates to less expensive construction.
brokelin | 10 years and 6 months ago
I would think you’d want to build your own wall, so you know it is strong, rather than relying on a wall you didn’t build to hold up your structure.
brucef | 10 years and 6 months ago
I have dealt with this problem a number of times, most recently in which we were the owners of both buildings. Depending on the date of construction, most older houses were built with a double course of bricks as a party wall, maybe 8″ total, maybe 10-11″ if the mortar between was sloppy. Hidden in the replies above was critical information that was not highlighted. Front and back where the flues are located, the course you are looking at is the only course of brick. Cut a hole for a pocket and there ain’t nothing there behind, you are into your neighbor’s house. You make it sound as if your neighbor might be some kind of dull witted obstacle to progress and your reasonable request. Take this opportunity to thank him for saving your bacon. Any engineer who signed off on your idea because they often don’t know much is clueless. I wouldn’t trust a kid’s swing set to that single course of old bricks. Let alone floor joists and half you new house.